Anne Salesbury Powell

[Pauls63]

Hi,

I'm trying to find out some information about the wife of an ancestor of mine. Her name was Anne and she was married to a Joshua Salusbury of Denbigh, later of Gyffylliog.
I have recently come across some information which suggests that she might actual be the same Anne Salesbury who married Ellis Powell in Clocaenog in 1679.

Firstly though, some background:

I have, I believe anyway, traced my direct line back to a Joshua Salusbury, a mercer in Denbigh, and his wife Lucy Myddelton.
I currently have no birth or death dates for either.
They had at least 4 sons, John, William (? - d.1727), Foulk (? - d.1716) and another Joshua (? - d.1719?), my ancestor, who was also a mercer.
This Joshua married, firstly, a Dorothy by which he had at least 3 sons -  John, Thomas (b.1683 - ?) and Foulk (b.1685 - ?).
Dorothy died in 1687 and it appears that Joshua then married Anne.
According to the Denbigh PRs they had 6 sons :
Twins William and Hugh who were born in Nov 1703. Hugh I think died straight away and William a month later.
David    (b.1704, Denbigh - d.1771, Llanynys) - my ancestor.
Owen    (b.1706, Denbigh - d.1783, Ruthin)
Roger    (b.1708, Denbigh - d.1708, Gyffylliog)
Thomas (b.1710, Denbigh - d.1785, Gyffylliog)

Joshua died, I believe, in 1719. He lived in Gyffylliog at the time but he wasn't buried there. I'm still trying to find out where he was buried.

Most of the information above I found in the Denbigh and Gyffylliog PRs, a book called 'Chirk Castle Accounts A.D 1666 - 1753' and various wills found at NLW or the National Archives including:
The will of Jane Merton (nee Myddelton), 1691, of Llandyrnog, Joshua's aunt. (National Archives)
The will of William Salusbury, 1727, Of Denbigh, mercer, Joshua's brother. (NLW)
The will of Foulk Salusbury, 1716, of Ystrad Cynon, Denbigh, Gent, Joshua's brother. (NLW)

So back to the link.
I have come across 2 pieces of information which might suggest that this Anne was in fact the same Anne Salesbury who married Ellis Powell.
1) An entry in 'Chirk Castle Accounts A.D 1666 - 1753, for November 1720 which talks of giving Richard Powell 3 pounds to pass onto his mother, the widow of Joshua Salusbury.
The entry stipulates that this is the same Joshua Salusbury of Denbigh who was a mercer and died in 1719.
2) There is a bond in Joshua's name (actually spelt Joshuah) on the NLW wills database for 1720 in Gyffylliog. This bond has the names and signatures of Richard Powell of Clocaenog and Anne Salusbury.

I know this is not concrete proof so does anyone have any more evidence?
Is there a marriage for them in the Clocanenog PR or anywhere else? I guess the marriage would have been between 1696 (when Ellis Powell died) and 1703.
It's quite possible that this is a completely different Anne Powell who also had a son called Richard, from Clocaenog, from a previous marriage.

However if this is true then it makes me wonder if there was a connection between the 2 branches before Joshua and Anne were married.
I have hit a brick wall with Joshua and Lucy and I haven't been able to go back any further so if anybody has any information on this branch that would be great.

I'm also interested on getting more information on Anne and her Salesbury branch.
I've found the wills on NLW for her father Henry and her grandfather Hugh Salesbury and I can't seem to go any further than that, although I believe that on Hugh's will it mentions a brother, William ap John.
So it's possibly that John Salesbury was Hugh's father.

I know Heather (Hiraeth) is descended from the Salesburys of Clocaenog has done some research on them and Anne in particular, so I'm interested to know what she thinks.   

Thanks

Paul Salisbury

[Rol]

Hi Paul,


Thanks very much for posting such an interesting and well-sourced opening enquiry!

I am sure that Heather will soon respond to you herself,  but meanwhile I hope that it is safe to assume that you know of her interest thanks to her thread about a Salusbury/Salesbury PCC will a couple of years ago on this forum -- and perhaps also to her very recent enquiry on RootsWeb's Clwyd mailing list about Hugh Salesbury,  the paternal grandfather of the Anne who forms the subject line of your new thread.  (Do correct me if I have those assumptions wrong.)

To try and ensure that all readers have easy and direct access to that same starting knowledge base,  as a foundation for the forthcoming discussion,  here are hypertext links to the threads just mentioned:

RootsChat:  http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,263964.0.html *

RootsWeb:  http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/CLWYD/2009-11/1258222726

It may also be worth mentioning another recent RootsWeb thread,  tangentially related to the first one,  which provides some more information about the PCC will that was the subject of Heather's RootsChat topic.  Here is the link:  http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/CLWYD/2009-11/1258761610

With all the info that you have posted to help,  let's hope that we have a good platform for further progress.


Rol



* ADDED: Running in parallel with (and for a little longer than) this topic,  there was a second that focused rather more widely on the Powell connection;  and see especially Replies 13 and 17 for their direct Salesbury interest.  Link is  http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=703f02eb5ebc7f3de3e698f298baf3d9&topic=245036.0

[Pauls63]

Hi Rol,

Thanks very much taking the time to read my post (as it is rather long!) and  for posting those links up.
I had been aware of some them but it is very useful and to have all the information together in one post.
In fact without those previous posts I wouldn't have even made a connection!
Let's hope we can find some definitive proof.

Cheers

Paul

[hiraeth]

Hello Paul

It's good to be in touch with someone else researching the elusive 17th & 18th century Salesbury families
Unfortunately I’m not sure if there is much I can contribute.

I have attached a couple of images of signatures for you to compare:
1) Anne Powell signed the bond for Ellis Powell  - NLW ref B1696-112  (It's filed under Elis I believe -  NLW server is down at the moment so unable to confirm at the moment).
2) Richard Powell signed the bond for Rowland Powell Wynne's estate in 1723  NLW ref  B/1723/102.

As soon I as read the name Joshua I remembered I had seen a Joshua Salusbury in
the Clocaenog burial registers:

May 20, 1749  Anne SALUSBURY  Wd/o Joshua   (but nothing for Joshua himself and no marriage at Clocaenog)

I had wondered about this entry a couple of years ago but in light of your post perhaps this is “my” Anne.  I have never found her baptism but as she married Ellis Powell in 1679 I estimated she would have been born circa 1660 which would have made her about 90 at death if she was this lady.  Not impossible, I suppose but I’ve noticed that there is often a notation of great age in the register if someone achieved an above average life span of this nature!!!!

I have a file off the internet re the Salisburies of Lleweni.  It used to be on aol homepage for “dalesman” but the site has since shut down.  It appears to be a copy of a pedigree type document written in the 19th century.  There is mention of a Joshua Salusbury who died at Denbigh in 1719 with his lineage going back to the William Salusbury of Plas isa Llanrwst and beyond.  If you do not have it, please send me a personal message with your email and I will send it to you.

I look forward to your opinion on the signatures!

Heather

[hiraeth]

I've found these baptisms in the Clwyd FHS transcripts of Clocaenog

Aug 14, 1698 Anne SALUSBURY d/o Joshua and Anne
Oct 28, 1700  Jane SALUSBURY d/o Joshua and Anne
Nov 2, 1701  Hugh SALUSBURY s/o Joshua and Anne

IF this was the same Anne Salesbury she bore SEVEN known children to Ellis Powell
Margaret 1681, Elizabeth 1683, Richard 1687, Catherine 1689-1690, Catherine 1692, Henry 1691-1691 and Henry 1695 and then a further NINE to Joshua    SIXTEEN children over a span of 31 years  and then proceeded to live to 85-90 years of age???   

Ellis Powell was buried at Gyffylliog August 1, 1696 so my guess the marriage would have taken place mid-1697.   Have you checked the North Wales/Hayes Marriage Index for a location?

H 

[Pauls63]

Hi Heather,

Thanks for posting those replies.
The information that you have provided looks like it could be very useful indeed

It's seems the Clocaenog PRs are providing quite a bit of information. Previously I would never have thought of looking there!
I have missed out those Clocaenog baptism completely. I always thought Hugh was a twin of William, now that appears not to be the case.

The signature of Richard Powell is almost certainly the same. The one for Anne is less clear as only the first name is the same.

If this is the the same Anne then she certainly was a strong woman with a hardy constitution!
Age is one thing that has nagged me about whether the 2 Anne's are one in the same.
If my 'Anne' is Anne Salesbury then she would have been well into her 40's when she had some of her children. Not impossible I know. Also the fact that she would have been 85-90 when she died is another thing.

Finding the marriage seems to be the key. I haven't looked in the Hayes index and I haven't come across it before. Where can I get hold of it?

I have been looking for this "dalesman" document that you have mentioned but as you say the site is now down. This looks like it could be interesting. I will send you a PM with my email.

I have all the Gyffylliog PRs if you need me to look something up. I also have Llanynys, Llanfwrog, Llanbedr DC and Bodfari.

I have to go Christmas shopping now but I will respond again later and try and post images of the signatures that I have.

Thanks again for responding.

Paul

[Pauls63]

Hi Heather,

Here are the two signatures of Anne Salusbury and Richard Powell from the bond of Joshua Salusbury.

Certainly I think Richard Powell's signature is the same.


I have also found a couple of entries in the Gyffylliog PRs, not sure if you already have them.

Feb 4 1620 Grace vch John Salesbury
Apr 2 1625 Jane vch John Salesbury

Thanks

Paul

[Pauls63]

Hi Heather,

I've found the North Wales Marriage Index that you referred to in your earlier post.
I was actual aware of Ann Hayes as she is from my home town but I didn't realise she did marriages before 1837! 

Anyway I will get her to have a look for me.

[hiraeth]

Hi Paul

I've sent you the file directly    If you use the find function to locate the word "Joshua" in the document you will see that Joshua may have had ties to Llansantffraid Glan Conway and the Llanrwst area through his possible parents Thomas Salisbury & Mary Conway.  Perhaps this is where some answers lie.  All roads may yet lead to the Caernarvon Record Office.  I'll have to have a hunt around for the the listing of their records as not sure if they go back that far in these areas.

The Anne signatures are quite different     Perhaps all those childbirths altered her "hand"
The jury is still out for me

I didn't have the baptisms for Grace and Jane from Gyffylliog so thank you very much for those! 

The Hayes Index is an invaluable resource.  I would never have found many in my tree without it.

H