Amy Hoyle/Hankin/Mcintrye?

[AllStar]

Hi Tuppence, I have sent you a private message about this, did you get it?

[TUPPENCE59]

Hello,

I am the grandaughter of Thomas Frederick Hankin who was one year older than George. He lived to the ripe old age of 96. I knew little or nothing about the family because he had fallen out with most of them, although I don't really know why. The only one of his siblings I ever met was Richard. Now, Grandad was six foot three, but Richard had to bend down to get throught the door - he was massive!
Thomas married twice and my uncle Tommy was from the first marriage, my Dad and his sister from the second. Amy took Tommy on when his mother died and so there were about 17 of them all living in a two up, two down in Bootle. Considering this was less than a hundred years ago, life was awfully hard for them and from what Tommy wrote in his book, they depended on help from a police charity.
 Did you know that Amy's father died just before she was born? They didn't seem to have much luck with spouses and children dying, a sigh of the times I suppose.
 I was in contact with another Hankin relative a couple of years ago - the grandson of Alice Grace Hankin - who told me that Amy's half sister was called Alice Robinson and she married a man named Daniel Callan or Calland. They have proved elusive.
I hope this is of some use to you. I'll have another read through Uncle Tommy's papers to see if I can find anything you might be interested in. Let me know if there is anything specific.
Bye for now.

[AllStar]

Thanks so much for all your infomation, after that message I set out again with refound energy to look for my great granfather's siblings (your grandand's) and have found them all using previous knoweldege and the 1911 cenus. I am happy to share this infomation (as I think you do not have it based on what you are saying) and would love to here all yours. (I do not know past Amy Hoyle/Thomas Hakins parents, and that book sounds amazing.) Do you know how to private message on here so we can share our infomation?

[bunnyb]

Hello,

I'm new to the forum.  Tuppence, I see that in one of your replies, you mention having traced the Balshaw line back to about 1650.

I'm a descendant of the some of the Balshaws in the Ormskirk area and am wondering if you can give me some help.  I've been looking specifically at Balshaws from Altcar and Aughton and environs.

William Balshaw, b. abt 1713, d. 1797, was my 5x g grandfather.  I've not been able to trace his ancestors.  Any help you can give would be very much appreciated.

Cheers.

[TUPPENCE59]

Hello,

Thanks for your message.

A couple of years ago I made contact with a lady who had completed a genealogy course at Edge Hill University and as an exercise, her tutor asked her to trace one of his own lines - the Balshaws. (Obviously, he had already done the research himself so knew what she should come up with!)
Fortunately, her findings matched mine, however she said it they hadn't been able to to go back much further than the mid-18th century with any certainty and I think this may have been because of the numerous 'Williams' in the lines. Very confusing! Also the various places in which the families lived have proved complicated with the boundaries between Aughton, Altcar and Ormskirk often being a bit blurred - that is to say resident in Altcar, but churchgoer in Aughton etc..
I have traced my line back to William Balshaw who was born around 1750 in Ormskirk and died in Altcar, Oct 1841.
Based on the traditional use of family Christian names which the Balshaws seem to follow through the generations - first son named after paternal grandfather etc. - I think William's father may have been Thomas Balshaw born in Ormskirk c.1718.
Possible parents for Thomas; James Balshaw born Ormskirk c.1673 and Ellen Dobb.
James and Ellen had these children (that I can find) born in Scarisbrick;
Alice 1705
Elizabeth 1708
William born & died 1711
William 1712* - possibly 'your' William?
Sarah 1716
Thomas 1718 - possibly 'my' Thomas.

There is also a record on the Lancashire Online Parish Records website of a William Balshaw christened at Ormskirk, 25 Oct 1713, father John Balshaw of Scarisbrick (brother of James perhaps?). This would also fit with the approximate date you give. There are death records available for other boys named William born around the same time so - obviously - they can be ruled out as possibilties. On the face of it, that leaves you with the two Williams mentioned above, although after more than a decade of tracing my family tree, I have found that some birth, marriage and death records seem to have vanished completely - even when you happen to have met the person you are trying to locate! So it's entirely possible that there were others.

This is partly why I use the 'grandfather's name' rule of thumb in my research - it's nowhere near foolproof, but I've found it quite useful when trying to distinguish between branches.
Before the Family Search website changed it was possible to get some idea of how the lines progressed and based on notes I made a few years ago, I have another William (born c.1639) pencilled in as the father of James. His father and grandfather may have also been called William - the latter being married to Alis Scarisbrick in Ormskirk, 16 Dec 1599. I think these two may be the 'Adam and Eve' of all the Balshaws in this area.
Obviously, I can't say for certain that this info is in any way accurate. I have realised that some records I saw a few years back have now disappeared from the online source where I collected them which could mean they were incorrect and subsequently removed, but I hope you find something here which will be of some use to you.
Let me know what you think!

[bunnyb]

Hello, Tuppence,

Many thanks for your detailed and very helpful reply.  The 1797 burial record for my William gives his death age as 84, which if at all accurate puts his birth in 1713, give or take.  I had more or less decided that either the James or the John you mention was my William’s father.  Using the grandfather rule of thumb you hit on,  John is the correct choice, as my William named his eldest son John—unless there was another, older son who reached adulthood but died before William made his will, which is of course possible.   The line you suggest seems sensible to me, and it also seems very possible that James b. 1673 was the brother of the John I’m tentatively choosing as my ancestor. 

For what it’s worth, I’ll tell you what I’m sure of.   Much of this information comes from the copies I have of the wills of William the elder (b. abt 1713) and of his son, Wiliam the younger (b. abt. 1751), both of Altcar.  The elder William was married to Jane Underwood in 1741; his will mentions his father-in-law, John Underwood.   Jane apparently  pre-deceased Wm, as his will makes no reference to her;  there’s a death record for Jane Balshaw from Dec 1757 that I believe is hers.  Wm’s will mentions his sons John (identified as the eldest), Thomas, and William; and daughters Mary, wife of Richard Brindle of Altcar, and Elizabeth, wife of Henry Rigby.  The will was witnessed by Thomas Rigby, Robert Goore, and James Longton (or Lougton?).   Based on the will and on birth and death records, I’ve assigned the following birth and death dates to these offspring:  John 1741-1821; Mary 1745-1807; Thos. 1747-1819; Eliz. 1749-1804; and Wm. 1751-1833.  William the elder’s will also mentions his granddaughter Margaret, daughter of his son William, which helped to make the connections here clearer.   (Wm. wills to Margaret his bed—a bit like Shakespeare.)

I’ve based the birth date of Wm the younger on a death notice from the Liverpool Mercury of 15 Feb 1833 for Wm Balshaw of Altcar, in his  82nd year.  The will of Wm. the younger was witnessed by James Rigby, Henry Burgess, and James Norris and mentions sons William and Goore and three daughters:  Jane Balshaw, apparently unmarried; Margaret, wife of Thomas Shacklady of Liverpool; and Bridget, wife of James Morley of Kirkdale.  Based on the younger son’s given name, it seems likely that this is the William Balshaw who married Anne Goore in 1777.  Another death notice for Anne, wife of William Balshaw of Altcar, places her in her 88th year when she died in 1831.  Thus she was likely born around 1744 and died before Wm did, which again squares with the will, which doesn’t mention her.  Likely birth and death dates for the offspring:  Margaret 1778-1846; Jane 1780-1833; William 1782-1844; Bridget 1785-1845; Goore 1788-1851.  Oh, and one of Wm. the younger’s executors was a nephew named (you guessed it) William Balshaw, identified as living at Hill House in Altcar.

These wills refer to properties in Lydiate, Altcar, and Downholland and give the names of some of them:  Oliver’s, Hilton’s,  Sutton’s, Plumb’s, and the Nook, some of them leased from the Earl of Sefton.

Well.  Perhaps that’s more than you wanted to know, but I thought that knowing some things for certain about my line of Balshaws might clear up for you some uncertainties about yours.  If you have the time, do let me know what you think and add any corrections you can make.   I sincerely appreciate your help.

[TUPPENCE59]

Hello,

I find it all interesting, whether it's my direct line or not, but it's nice to have someone else agreeing with what you've found. Between us all, we could probably put together a really concise tree! It's great to come across a well documented family in a line with ready available information, but when the family is 'ordinary', it can be difficult to put all the pieces together on your own.
I remember reading somewhere that the Balshaws were 'allowed' to rent land from the Earl of Sefton, but had to sign up to a Popish list to do so. Perhaps you have seen this info, too.

Not so long ago, I was sent a photograph of my great, great grandmother, Ellen Hankin nee Balshaw (1820-1919) and showed it to my aunt who became quite emotional. It seems my grandfather was particularly fond of Ellen and had talked of her a great deal to my aunt when she was growing up. It was only recently I found out exactly where the farm that 'my' Balshaws lived 200 years ago is. Living locally, I had driven past many times without realising that that was the place where Ellen was born. Brings it all to life, doesn't it?
Best wishes,
Jill

[bunnyb]

Hello, Tuppence,

I had not heart the bit about the Balshaws being "allowed" to rent from the earl if they signed up to a Popish list.  The vagaries of tenant farming in the UK are, well, vague to me.  Here in the US, tenant farmers were usually almost the poorest of the poor (a bit better off than sharecroppers), but that doesn't necessarily seem to have been true in England.  Do you know?

Lovely that you were able to locate the farm where your ancestor was born, and yes, it does bring it all alive.  Along those lines, I've been trolling through historic newspapers, as the stories sometimes offer a glimpse into what life was like that bare names and dates don't provide.  Here's a snippet from the Preston Chronicle of 22 Jan 1848 that might interest you.  It's about someone who must be a relative, though I don't know who:

A Narrow Escape.—On Saturday night last, as Mr. Balshaw, of Altcar, was returning from Preston market, he had occasion to call at Mrs Williams’s Burscough Bridge Inn, where, it being dark, he thought proper to load his pistol, which, unfortunately, went off, and hit the pipe in Henry Forshaw’s mouth within two inches from his lips.  Fortunately, no injury was sustained.

Yikes.

[TUPPENCE59]

Hello,

Love the story about the gun and pipe!

It's typical (of me, at least) that I can't find the notes I made about the Balshaws having to put their name on the Papist Rolls.
I did find this;
Note about Papist Rolls: The first Jacobite rebellion resulted in the passing of the Act of 1 George chapter 55 (1715), which required every papist to register his name and details of his real property with the Clerk of the Peace, to be subscribed personally or by attorney at Quarter Sessions. Catholics had a pretty hard time in the 17th and 18th centuries. Religious services were illegal, they were prevented from educating their children except in their own homes, and they were disallowed from inheriting or purchasing land. They were taxed very heavily.

There is mention of a Goore in this extract;
The Capital messuage called the Hall of Altkarr, with the Hemp Yord, Wheat Yord, Cow Pasture, Cow Hey Meadow, Sedgefield, Sedgefield Meadow, Two Ox Leasols, Sand Hey, Roberts Hey, Farrow Hey at Alt, and the Hall Meadow, part of the demesne, let to Mr. Nicholas Fazakerley, Richard Goore, Robert Heys, Richard Linacre, John Livesay, Henry Tatlock and John Tyrer, for 15 years at £63.

Caryll, Lord Molyneux rented out his land in Lancashire to fellow Catholics and his son Sir William Molyneux, Baronet, Viscount Molyneux of Maryburgh, seems to have been willing to continue the practice after his father's death. Perhaps they were sympathetic with the cause or it might merely have been a way of making money out of the situation.
I don't think these Catholics were initially poor, just heavily restricted (as suggested above) which would explain why you see the fortunes of some notable families declining through the generations. I suppose those who stuck to their religious beliefs gradually lost land and wealth, whereas those who converted were able to prosper.
Certainly, my Balshaws were not wealthy, although having 16 children by three different women must have cost Thomas Balshaw a pretty penny!

Best wishes
Jill