Author Topic: Jessie Crown and Philip Cohen Glasgow  (Read 9651 times)

Offline igeoff

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 39
  • Art Gallery/Museum Guide/Docent
    • View Profile
Re: Jessie Crown and Philip Cohen Glasgow
« Reply #18 on: Friday 15 January 10 12:07 GMT (UK) »
Thanks for the information, Justin -- and have a good trip, wherever you are flying from or to!

I would be most grateful to see whatever you have from Amsterdam. However, I and others have already done considerable work on this side of the family

I have the Isaacs side back to Izaak Simons, born in Amsterdam sometime in the 18th century and his son Simon Isaacs who took the name Bollegraaf in 1812. The Bollegraaf family tree follows many of his children and their descendants -- sadly most lines end in the early 1940s in Auschwitz,

On the Italiaander side I have Elizabeth to Simon Italiaander and Esther de Metz and thence back several generations of both partners.

The genealogical resources for Jewish Amsterdam in the 17th and 18th centuries are truly remarkable (start with the databases on Akevoth, for example, or the site allegroningers.com) and the Bollegraaf and Italiaander families have done lots of work in the past. As it happens, I am reasonably fluent in Dutch and my wife is a native speaker -- so original primary sources present no insuperable problems.

However, as far as the Cohen side is concerned, I speak only minimal Russian and what litle Yiddish I ever had has long since been swamped first by rudimentary German and then by Dutch. On this side I need all the help I can get.
Isaacs and Bollegraaf families (Australia 1911 on, London around 1900 to 1912. The Netherlands before that. Herman Isaacs (in London and AU), Herman Izak (in Netherlands)

Elizabeth Italiaander (b Amsterdam 1876) and her antecedents.

Jessie Crown (born probably Lithuania, died in Sydney AU in 1952)
Philip Cohen, her husband (born Latvia or Russia, died Sydney AU 1933) and their antecedents and families.

Offline igeoff

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 39
  • Art Gallery/Museum Guide/Docent
    • View Profile
Re: Jessie Crown and Philip Cohen Glasgow
« Reply #19 on: Friday 15 January 10 12:11 GMT (UK) »
Thanks for the information, Justin -- and have a good trip, wherever you are flying from or to!

I would be most grateful to see whatever you have from Amsterdam. However, I and others have already done considerable work on this side of the family

I have the Isaacs side back to Izaak Simons, born in Amsterdam sometime in the 18th century and his son Simon Isaacs who took the name Bollegraaf in 1812. The Bollegraaf family tree follows many of his children and their descendants -- sadly most lines end in the early 1940s in Auschwitz, Sobibor or similarly horrible places.

On the Italiaander side I have Elizabeth to Simon Italiaander and Esther de Metz and thence back several generations of both partners.

The genealogical resources for Jewish Amsterdam in the 17th and 18th centuries are truly remarkable (start with the databases on Akevoth, for example, or the site allegroningers.com) and the Bollegraaf and Italiaander families have done lots of work in the past. As it happens, I am reasonably fluent in Dutch and my wife is a native speaker -- so original primary sources present no insuperable problems.

However, as far as the Cohen side is concerned, I speak only minimal Russian and what litle Yiddish I ever had has long since been swamped first by rudimentary German and then by Dutch. On this side I need all the help I can get.

Thanks again and cheers
Geoff
Isaacs and Bollegraaf families (Australia 1911 on, London around 1900 to 1912. The Netherlands before that. Herman Isaacs (in London and AU), Herman Izak (in Netherlands)

Elizabeth Italiaander (b Amsterdam 1876) and her antecedents.

Jessie Crown (born probably Lithuania, died in Sydney AU in 1952)
Philip Cohen, her husband (born Latvia or Russia, died Sydney AU 1933) and their antecedents and families.

Offline JustinL

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,804
    • View Profile
Re: Jessie Crown and Philip Cohen Glasgow
« Reply #20 on: Saturday 16 January 10 08:04 GMT (UK) »
Geoff,

I work in NW England during the week and spend the weekends with wife and kids in Dublin.

None of your earlier postings made much mention of the Italiaander family, so I assumed that you had not progressed very well. How wrong I was. You have probably already looked at the 1851 census records and all the other fabulous records on the DutchJewry site, etc.

I shall concentrate on the Litvak Cohens and Crowns. Looking through the various databases again it appears that the 19th vital records for Rietavas may have been destroyed. There are, however, various tax and voter's lists from the right period, but they are unlikely to mention Phillip/Falk. I have noticed an Itsyk Kaplan (s/o Yankel) in 1890. I shall check the details again.

As for the Crowns. It may be wise to approach LitvakSIG directly.

Justin


Offline igeoff

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 39
  • Art Gallery/Museum Guide/Docent
    • View Profile
Re: Jessie Crown and Philip Cohen Glasgow
« Reply #21 on: Sunday 17 January 10 10:15 GMT (UK) »
Thanks Justin.

Two questions:

Do you mean a Litvak SIG on Jewishgen?

What 1851 census is that? As I understand it in 1849 the Dutch started the population register (Bevolkingsregister, I assume)) and from then on ALL moves of ALL Dutch people have been tracked. However, access is a nightmare until about 1920, when indexes moved to a name or family rather than an address basis (see, for example, http://genealogy.about.com/library/authors/ucklaassen1d.htm. Have I missed something??

G
Isaacs and Bollegraaf families (Australia 1911 on, London around 1900 to 1912. The Netherlands before that. Herman Isaacs (in London and AU), Herman Izak (in Netherlands)

Elizabeth Italiaander (b Amsterdam 1876) and her antecedents.

Jessie Crown (born probably Lithuania, died in Sydney AU in 1952)
Philip Cohen, her husband (born Latvia or Russia, died Sydney AU 1933) and their antecedents and families.


Offline JustinL

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,804
    • View Profile
Re: Jessie Crown and Philip Cohen Glasgow
« Reply #22 on: Monday 18 January 10 11:57 GMT (UK) »
Geoff,

Sorry, yes, I do mean JewishGen's LitvakSIG. Are you already a subscriber?

You should contact the shtetl or district coordinator. They should be able to provide a clear picture of the availability of records and funding for translation.

The census I referred to from memory is the Bevolkingsregister for 1851-53. Another one of the excellent databases on DucthJewry.

http://dutchjewry.org/databases/amsterdam_inhabitants/index.htm

What details do you have of Phillip's and Jessie's wedding?

Do you have any documentation (or gravestone pictures) that tell you Jessie's Hebrew/Yiddish name?

Justin

Offline igeoff

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 39
  • Art Gallery/Museum Guide/Docent
    • View Profile
Re: Jessie Crown and Philip Cohen Glasgow
« Reply #23 on: Monday 18 January 10 12:23 GMT (UK) »
Thanks Justin.

I will check that Amsterdam database. I did not know of it. Have not looked at it yet, but will let you know if anything comes of it.

There is a clear photo of Jessie's headstone on the Rookwood Cemetery web site, complete with a quite readable inscription in Hebrew.

It's many years since I have been anything like an observant (or any other kind o)f Jew.

However it looks to me as if the second third and fourth words on the top line (reading right to left, of course) are Jessie's Hebrew name. The second of these three words looks like "bat" to me (daughter of).

Perhaps someone else in this group with better Hebrew might take a look and transliterate it.

The URL is http://www.rookwoodjewishcemetery.com.au/detail.php?id=1013.

Philip and Jessie's marriage entry is available through Scotlandspeople.com [Statutory Marriages 644/15 0043]

It took place on 11/1/1910 at the Synagogue Cumberland Street Glasgow.

Philip's parents were Isaacs Cohen, Gardener, and Annie Cohen (MS Hertz).

Jessie's parents were Solomon Crown, Cabinetmaker (deceased -- in 1906 death record available) and Ethel Crown (MS Black -- should be Bloch).

Jessie died on 20/3/1928 and her death record reveals tat her parents were Isaac and Annie Bloch (no MS for Annie), both deceased.

Geoff
Isaacs and Bollegraaf families (Australia 1911 on, London around 1900 to 1912. The Netherlands before that. Herman Isaacs (in London and AU), Herman Izak (in Netherlands)

Elizabeth Italiaander (b Amsterdam 1876) and her antecedents.

Jessie Crown (born probably Lithuania, died in Sydney AU in 1952)
Philip Cohen, her husband (born Latvia or Russia, died Sydney AU 1933) and their antecedents and families.

Offline igeoff

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 39
  • Art Gallery/Museum Guide/Docent
    • View Profile
Re: Jessie Crown and Philip Cohen Glasgow
« Reply #24 on: Monday 18 January 10 12:29 GMT (UK) »
Justin:

I just looked at that Amsterdam database.

I have been there before. There are no results for the people I am interested in (for example those called Italiaander), even though I know Italiaanders etc lived in Amsterdam at that time.

However I will keep fiddling till I resolve this paradox.

Geoff
Isaacs and Bollegraaf families (Australia 1911 on, London around 1900 to 1912. The Netherlands before that. Herman Isaacs (in London and AU), Herman Izak (in Netherlands)

Elizabeth Italiaander (b Amsterdam 1876) and her antecedents.

Jessie Crown (born probably Lithuania, died in Sydney AU in 1952)
Philip Cohen, her husband (born Latvia or Russia, died Sydney AU 1933) and their antecedents and families.

Offline JustinL

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,804
    • View Profile
Re: Jessie Crown and Philip Cohen Glasgow
« Reply #25 on: Monday 18 January 10 13:50 GMT (UK) »
Geoff,

That's an excellent find. Her Hebrew name was Yehudit bat Shlomoh Dov.

Her father's double-name should make it easier to identify the family. However, he may have been Shlomoh Ber in Yiddish.

The name of Ethel's parents should prove useful too.

The search goes on ...

Justin


Offline JustinL

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,804
    • View Profile
Re: Jessie Crown and Philip Cohen Glasgow
« Reply #26 on: Monday 18 January 10 16:42 GMT (UK) »
Hello Geoff,

Brace yourself! I am fairly certain that I have found the family amongst the Litvak records.

The first census of the Russian Empire (28 Jan 1897) recorded this family in Komaiskaya Street.

KROK, Sholom Ber, Head of Household, 34 ,  ,  , Born and registered in Rokiskis. Joiner.In Kurland 
KROK, Etel, Wife, 32  Born in Vilnius, registered in Rokiskis.
KROK, Chona Leiba, Son, 9  Born in Vilnius, registered in Rokiskis.
KROK, Stira Yudes, Daughter, 7  Born in Vilnius, registered in Rokiskis.
KROK, Libe Reishe, Daughter, 6 Born in Vilnius, registered in Rokiskis.
KROK, Baske, Daughter, 6 months  Born in Vilnius, registered in Rokiskis.

The record also records that Etel was the daughter of an Itsek.

Sholom Ber is a Yiddish rendering of Shlomo Dov, Yudes is the Yiddish version if Yehudit and Baske (the Yiddish version of Bas Sheve) is commonly anglicised as Bessie.

Age and occupation match for Sholom Ber and, interestingly, he was actually in Kurland at the time of the census. There's the Dvinsk link. An earlier list of Box Taxpayers records him as a poor carpenter.

Krok was the Yiddish name for the shtetl of Kroki (קראָק) = Krakes in modern Lithuania.

A further record gives Stira Yudes Krok's b'day as 8 Nov 1889. ??

What do you think?

Justin