Jessie Crown and Philip Cohen Glasgow

[igeoff]

That looks VERY promising, Justin!

Thank you VERY much...

We have the ages pretty much consistent for Solomon [1901 census means b ca 1865; death record b ca 1863; yours b ca 1863], Ethel [yours b ca 1863; death record b ca 1870 BUT based on age "ABOUT 58 years" in 1928], Jessie {yours b ca 1890; my records b 1890 or 1892].

My next step was to try to track down Bessie's death [family members say she died a spinster] There was no record for a Bessie Crown. However, there are 4 for an Elizabeth Crown at reasonably believable ages. The best match is

4   1987   CROWN   ELIZABETH   Not Permissible       F   88   GLASGOW   GLASGOW/GLASGOW CITY   619/00 0380   No Image   ORDER [from Scotland's people]

If this IS Bessie then the implied birth year is 1898/1899.

I may well consider ordering the certificate....

On the matter of the Bevolkingsregister, I have re-visited it and remembered how to work it.

It is a re-indexing of that register BY NAMES for Jews in Amsterdam at that time (the original was BY ADRESSS, which makes it almost unsearchable). It gives me some addresses (after I get to the archives in Amsterdam to look at original docs) for some of the people I want. I have a visit there and to London planned for some time in the last quarter of this year...

I'll tink further on Jessie's family, Justin, but I believe you have done the job!

Thanks again
Geoff

[igeoff]

Hi Justin,

There are further checks that can be done:

According to the family there were four children (CHECK #1 passed!). They were Jessie, a brother (name unknown) [CHECK #2 passed!], Bessie, a spinster) and Lena, who married a Sam Swirsky (some of her details, including her death, are in earlier posts to this thread).

Lena died in 1974 aged 75. ie she was born around 1899, the same year range I get for my possible Bessie.

The birth years for Bessie and Lena do not gel with those for Libe and Baske. Baske is out by a couple of years at most.

But Libe was 6 in 1897 and that means she was born around 1891. This is 8 years out! [CHECK #3 doubtful]

What do you think??

Cheers
Geoff

[JustinL]

Geoff,

I would suggest that Lena and Libe Reisha were two different daughters. Lena born in 1899/1900, simply was not around for this 1897 census. Lena is also a common anglicisation for Leah.

Looking further back, I have identified Sholom Ber's father as Itsyk/Itsek Zelman Krok (b. c1848, d. 14 Jan 1886 Rokiskis), the son of Leyba Krok (b. c1800, d. 14 May 1885 Rokiskis), the son of Yankel Krok.

I have made further enquiries about some 18th century sources.

Justin

[igeoff]

Hi Justin,

Excellent work! I think we have an amazingly good match -- and an unlikely one given that only less than 6% of Jewish records for Kovno Province are extant.

I have backtracked a little of your research (just the Census) and see that Etel's father was also an Itzek. This corresponds well with "my" Ethel's death record which has her parents as Isaac Bloch and Annie Bloch (MS unknown).

I think your hypothesis that there was another daughter, Lena (who might well have been Leah), born after the census and thus that Libe Reishe, for whatever reason, did not make it to Scotland is a reasonably simple one.

I don't think that at present I have the knowledge of the relevant data sources or the Yiddish language skills to go further, so I am delighted to follow you.

For the benefit of me and of other following this thread (others? hello!) it would be good if you could give your sources and method as we go along.

Thanks again!
Geoff

[JustinL]

Hello Geoff,

I was going to switch to private correspondence by email, as do not think anyone else is 'tuning in'.

The other point aboutthis family that we must not overlook is the surname itself. Krok to Crown is not a huge transformation.

The only readily available data sources are via JewishGen. A huge abundance of information has been lovingly translated and amassed in the All Lithuania Database (ALD). There is seemingly more available, but I'll come to that later.

An important key to Jewish genealogy is knowing and understanding the numerous names an individual may have. In the case of your family, establishing that Jessie was Yehudit bat Shlomo Dov was the real breakthrough.

A knowledge of Yiddish names leads to the conclusion that she was likley to have been called Yudes daughter of Shlomo Ber - surname unknown. Dov is hebrew for 'bear', Ber is the Yiddish word. This is called a calque.

The next step was simply to interrogate the database with various combinations of the known data. As soon as I scrolled down a dataset and my eyes hit on the family of Sholom Ber Krok and his wife Etel, a daughter of Itsek, I knew I was on the right track. Sholom/Sholem/Shalom are all Yiddish nicknames for Shlomo.

Almost all the records provide the forename of an inviduals father and often the grandfather too. So, armed with the surname, the rest falls into place quite easily.

There are several descendents of this Krok family avidly researching their roots. It's time for some networking. I'll provide a list of groups that you might consider joining in a follow-uip posting.

All the best,

Justin

[KirstyG]

Just so you know - when a thread has been viewed over 400 times there are others "tuning in" albeit silently. It's fascinating 

[JustinL]

What more encouragement do I need, Kirsty? Thank you.

However, I have suggested to Geoff that we may be reaching the limits of my access to records.

Turning our attention to the sadly-neglected Phillip Cohen for a moment, I can only see a very high and thick brickwall. The archives database at the Routes to Roots Foundation shows how few records have survived the passage of time, i.e. the Holocaust.

http://www.rtrfoundation.org/search.php

I am currently speculating that the original surname was Kaplan (which is derived from the Polish word for priest, i.e. a Cohen). Other possibilities are mentioned in this comprehensive article  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kohen). The article, however, fails to mention the additional problem that the Russian alphabet does not have the letter ‘h’. The ‘h’ sound in Yiddish and Hebrew (the letter hey ה) is generally rendered as a ‘g’. Hence, Kohen became Kogan or Kagan, Hirsh = Girsh, Herts = Gerts, etc. in Russian documents which inevitably form the core of available records.

The revision list (census) of 1870 for Rietavas does record the absent brothers Itsyk and Abram Kaplan, aged 18 and 17 respectively. Itsyk Kaplan = Yitschak ha-Kohen in Hebrew = Isaac Cohen in English. A good candidate for Phillip’s father, but without any additional supporting information, this remains but a theory. However, the limited records throw up no other candidates. Cohen is recognised as just about the most difficult surname to research in Jewish genealogy.

Phillip’s mother, Annie Herts, was most probably Chane Gerts/Gertz in Russian records. Her surname (and variants) are derived from the Middle High German word ‘Herz’ meaning ‘stag’ or perhaps more appropriately ‘hart’ (in modern standard German ‘Herz’ means ‘heart’), and is a Yiddish calque of the Hebrew name Tsvi, which is in turn an alias, a so-called kinui, for Naftali. The name association, as with several others, draws on Jacob’s blessings for his sons somewhere in Genesis; he likened his son Naftali to a stag.  The surname was relatively unusual in this region of the Russian Pale and may suggest that her family had migrated eastwards in relatively recent times.

I have been unable to make any further progress on this side and would urge you to make contact with the Raseiniai District Research Group of Litvak SIG http://www.litvaksig.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=article&id=13&Itemid=10

The Bloch family is proving a bit elusive too. As was the case with Rietavas, few records from the Jewish community of Vilnius appear to have survived. I would seek guidance from Litvak SIG (www.litvaksig.org)

Justin

[igeoff]

Hello all!

Justin and I have been communicating, but the essence of our discussion is in his previous post.

After that it has been my sending corrections to the version he has of my twig of the Bollegraaf family tree: the one where the line becomes Izak and is no longer Bollegraaf. It leads to Herman Izak/Isaacs and Elizabeth Italiaander and I believe I have commented about that elsewhere, previously, on Rootschat.

I would, however, like to throw one small stone into the discussion pool and, if there are ripples then perhaps the moderator will move this to a new thread. It is a point I have already raised off line with Justin.

My interest in my family's history -- and it is in just that, not in genealogy generally -- is in who they were, and the least of that is their names (unless thjey too tell me something): I already know that, barring some kind of bizarre miracle, I had a great great great great grandfather and ---grandmother. That their names might be Fred and Mabel is in many ways beside the point. What I want to know is their occupations, their places (of residence etc), their children, where they moved and why (including the relevant historical context).

Once it gets to the stage where all I am doing is putting labels called names to slots called people, I lose interest.

This has not happened yet with the Crowns/Kroks and the Cohens/??? When it does, that will be when I stop -- at least until I notice that someone, somewhere may have found a chink in a brick wall.

What do others think? Are names enough? Why do you do what you do?

Geoff

[KirstyG]

I never just want names and dates. They are the start point for filling out the tree.

You always have to have things in historical perspective in order to begin to understand what life would have been like for them, geography also plays a huge part.

I want to know about the people in the family, where they lived, what they did, where they travelled. To that end I have already had several journeys around visiting the old houses where possible, and am even in contact with decendants of their friends and neighbours through rootschat!

Kirsty