Impossible Brickwall

[Anne W]

 Have never found a marriage for Robert R R Rose and Maria Todd only the reading of the banns in 1799. At the time Robert has received his Warrant and been assigned as Purser to HMS Pelican and was waiting for his ship to come in ,literally. The Pelican was in Jamaica for most of 1799.

 He definitely married Ann Waters in St Helier Jersey in December 1800. The interesting thing is Ann was a local Jersey girl born and bred and looking at our Robert's Naval career and the ships he was on it is hard to see how he could have spent any time at all in Jersey in 1800. The Pelican arrived in Jersey in August 1800 and he married Ann in December. Pretty quick going!!

I would bet money that he DID marry Maria Todd in 1799 and his " marriage" to Ann Waters was some sort of shotgun affair. Maybe he was the atypical sailor with a wife in every port!

[LizzieL]

I am struggling to find a marriage between Robert RR Rose and Ann Waters in Jersey. I can find several children baptised to the couple - Robert is sometimes referred to as Richmond and sometimes as Robert Richmond

[LizzieL]

I'm getting confused here
Reply #4 states:

    In 1838 Ann applies for a copy of her marriage certificate. Why? In the 1841 census she is living on " Independant "means in St Helier. Could it be that Robert RR had died sometime in 1838 and Ann needed to prove her marriage to his sceptical family? Did they pay her off? Or is all this pointless speculation?
   

and later

Robert Reginald Richmond Rose died at Westminster London and was buried at St John the Evangelist on 4th May 1829. The address given in the church register was 13 Medway St Westminster.

The whole Rose family had come to London from Jersey in 1826 and originally were living at Red Cross St Southwark.

Did Ann Rose / Waters return to jersey after she was widowed?


The thrice married son John George Rose was baptised 16 Jun 1816 in Jersey. If his son was born in Jersey, it is likely the elusive 1st marriage was also there.

[Anne W]

I've never found a record of their marriage either BUT a family member has the copy of the parish record of the marriage that was made in the mid 1830's presumably at Ann's request. We think she may have tried to get some sort of Naval widow's pension or something and needed proof of marriage.

It's one of those side issues that I've been meaning to investigate. Whether the UK government had brought in a pension for the widows of ex naval officers around that time.

Also Robert RR himself in the Greenwich School application gives the date and place of his marriage so I think we can be sure it took place.

Ann Rose nee Waters and her daughter Ann returned to Jersey sometime between the death of RRR in 1829 and the 1841 census. Ann sen is listed as Independent means in that Census.

[LizzieL]

The baptism (privately) of Robert Richmond jnr states parents as Mr Robert Richmond Rose and Mrs Ann Waters.
The baptisms of Ann, Esther jane and John George state parents as (Mr) Richmond Rose and Ann Rose his wife. Ann and Esther were also privately baptised.
John George has godparents listed so presume public baptism. Gps were F (presume father - common in Jersey certainly with my lot), John Waters and Ann Waters.

[Anne W]

The major focus of my research now is to try and find out what happened to Robert RR and Ann Rose's two children Robert Richmond Rose born 1809 in Jersey and Jane born 1813 Jersey. We now know they were both alive and in London in 1826-28.


Poor Jane seems to have had a real Dickens type experience. There is the birth of a Richmond Levi born in January 1831 at the Marylebone Workhouse, mother Jane Rose , father Charles Levi. It would seem that the baby was illegitimate. The name Richmond was an important one in this Rose family and I really think this is my Jane. I know that Robert RR Rose had lost all his money with his newspaper venture but I don't think things could be that bad that his daughter would have ended up in the Workhouse! Maybe she was thrown out for getting pregnant?

Anyway the baby seems to have died in August 1831 as Richmond Rose in Lambeth. Poor little thing. What happened to Jane after all of this is the question.

There are far too many Robert Roses around in London to trace our Robert Richmond especially as he doesn't seem to have obligingly have used the Richmond part of his name! Not being able to find either a death or a marriage for him is frustrating.

Also Robertine Buton  appears as Roberteen Buton in the 1851 census, living in Marylebone. Right above her on the census, living next door in other words, is an Edward Rose. Edward was a Lady's shoe maker and was born in Clerkenwell. This could be nothing more than a coincidence, even if it is a big one!

[MarilynL]

I have just found out that Robert Reginald Richmond Rose is my 4 x great grandfather and I came across this information. It is most interesting - and entertaining!

 I wonder if anything more has been discovered about him?

I am in Australia and descended from his daughter Ann born 1819 who migrated to Australia in 1849.

[Anne W]

My Husband is descended from Ann Rose through her son Thomas George Griffith. I'm in Sydney which makes the search for Robert RR Rose's origins even more complicated!

I set out at the beginning to find out what sort of man our RRR Rose was and I think have achieved that at least. He must have been from a middle class merchant type background, given the career he had etc. Definitely not from a working class family. He lost whatever income he did have before his death, this on his own admission in the application form he filled out for the Greenwich School.

I tend to think either he wasn't born in the UK or his birth name wasn't Robert Reginald Richmond Rose! Either of which is entirely possible.

[MarilynL]

Anne, I'm in inner Sydney. I'm visiting Jersey in September and had no information on my Channel Islands ancestry except from the Censuses. The Channel Islands Family History Society did 2 hrs research for me and gave me some lineage back to 6 x great grandparents and advised there was a lot online if I googled Robert R R Rose.

This thread you started has been very helpful - you certainly have been able to do a lot of research. I hope the brick wall is solved for you one day.

I am from Thomas George's sister Ann Louisa who came to Australia as a child and married Walter Bailey.

Another interest for me on Jersey is the grave of Elizabeth Beckford Vickery who died there in 1874. She was born on Norfolk Island 1790-1 to two First Fleet convicts and her mother was my 5 x great grandmother. Elizabeth got around a bit - grew up in the Colony, married in Calcutta, back to the Colony, married again in London, back to the Colony and eventually to Jersey where she died.

Regards, Marilyn Long.