Author Topic: clan ian ruadh of knoydart  (Read 12141 times)

Offline TALLON

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Re: clan ian ruadh of knoydart
« Reply #9 on: Saturday 08 September 12 22:07 BST (UK) »
Peter,

Noticed your post regarding Ian Ruadh of Knoydart. In Donald Whyte's book he shows a Martin MacDonald from Knoydart INV to Halifax NS 1787 settled Knoydart, Antigonish Co children John and Martin Jr. This Martin Jr has children Hugh, Donald, Ronald, Angus, Mary, John and Flora. I assume this is your line and that you have this information. I also notice your line on charts that I have. One is from the library at Clan Donald on Skye and the other done by Fairbanks MacDonell. The latter was done on certain MacDonald's and MacDonell's that had Priests and Bishops in their lines. The line coming down from Ian Ruadh, Ruari, Dougall, Angus Buy, Ian, Donald, Martin has Archbishop Ronald, Rev Roderick, Rev Ronald and Rev Joseph. I assume also that this is your line. I connect to this line showing us as 8th cousins. Some years ago I purchased the personal fonds of Rev Ewen J MacDonald (St. Finnan's) who was a genealogist and put together many charts and from this and other sources I built my line back to Somerled. Eight years ago I did a DNA test along with the seven current MacDonald chiefs that confirmed our paper trail. Have tested or considered it?

Tal

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Offline Peter MacDonald

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Re: clan ian ruadh of knoydart
« Reply #10 on: Tuesday 25 September 12 14:22 BST (UK) »
Peter,

Noticed your post regarding Ian Ruadh of Knoydart. In Donald Whyte's book he shows a Martin MacDonald from Knoydart INV to Halifax NS 1787 settled Knoydart, Antigonish Co children John and Martin Jr. This Martin Jr has children Hugh, Donald, Ronald, Angus, Mary, John and Flora. I assume this is your line and that you have this information. I also notice your line on charts that I have. One is from the library at Clan Donald on Skye and the other done by Fairbanks MacDonell. The latter was done on certain MacDonald's and MacDonell's that had Priests and Bishops in their lines. The line coming down from Ian Ruadh, Ruari, Dougall, Angus Buy, Ian, Donald, Martin has Archbishop Ronald, Rev Roderick, Rev Ronald and Rev Joseph. I assume also that this is your line. I connect to this line showing us as 8th cousins. Some years ago I purchased the personal fonds of Rev Ewen J MacDonald (St. Finnan's) who was a genealogist and put together many charts and from this and other sources I built my line back to Somerled. Eight years ago I did a DNA test along with the seven current MacDonald chiefs that confirmed our paper trail. Have tested or considered it?

Tal


Hello Tal,

Sorry for the delayed reply.  With regard to your last post, I have seen the reference in Donald Whyte's book to Martin MacDonald.  The reference source for this entry however is not a primary source but is from the History of Antigonish County of Nova Scotia written by Rev Rankin.  Another book by Leonard Smith states Martin's arrival as 1784, the source for this entry is Martin MacDonald's 1810 Land Petition.  The first line of family you have stated is indeed correct and verified, however the line connecting Archbishop to the Ian Ruadh line has not been verified as of yet.

Just wondering where you purchased and whether you still hold them Father Ewen MacDonald's Fonds?  I would be very interested in seeing the originals at some point in time if possible.


Regards,

Peter

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Offline TALLON

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Re: clan ian ruadh of knoydart
« Reply #11 on: Tuesday 25 September 12 23:41 BST (UK) »
Peter,

The originals of Father's fonds are held by Ontario Archives in Toronto. They copied them for me on 8 - 35mm reels and I have a viewer/printer so I spent some time with them and then donated them to Maggie MacDonald Archivist at the Library of Clan Donald on Skye.

Tal

Offline Peter MacDonald

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Re: clan ian ruadh of knoydart
« Reply #12 on: Tuesday 30 October 12 03:25 GMT (UK) »
Hello everyone,

Anyone interested in learning about Clan Ian Ruadh of Knoydart, there isn't really much to tell.  The only references to the line are genealogical charts put together by Father Ewen MacDonald.  There is no written history of the Clan in any form aside from Father Ewen's charts.  Did it really exist?

This said I went to the Ontario Archives and spent the day there researching and gathering information for future review.  Anyone interested can get in without much issue, just register on line ahead of time and you can just pick-up your pass when you arrive.  The archive is located on the York University Campus in Toronto.  The best feature of this location is that you can save the micro film to your flash drive and take it home with you.

Father John MacDonald's Diary does have a great deal of genealogical information in it, however, there are only a few small charts that focus on one line with no lateral relations.  Some death entries (very few) do have extensive lineages named, these however are the exception.  Most entries have a couple of generations listed with no cross referencing to other families.

From reading over this diary and then going through Father Ewen MacDonald's Fonds it is very clear that any of the genealogical charts created by Father Ewen were not based on the work of Father John.  It appears that Father Ewen made a great number of assumptions and based relationships by mixing and matching names that matched together somewhat from Father John's Diary.  It is highly unlikely that the majority of the lines are correct (aside of course from those few individuals who had a long linage listed by Father John in his Diary).

My family is tied up into this chart most likely due to some priests and an Archbishop that descended from my 5G Grandfather Martin MacDonald.  There is a John MacDonald listed in Father John's Diary that closely matches the date of Martin's son from an 1810 Land Petition in Nova Scotia, in 1812 no John was mentioned in the actual grant indicating that he my have moved out of the area. 

John's entry in Father John's Diary mentioned that he was son of Martin, son of Donald, son of John, son of Angus.  This limited information was enough for Father Ewen MacDonald to include this line into the Clan Ian Ruadh of Knoydart Genealogy Chart.  Aside from the name Martin (although not uncommon) how many lines are there in Scottish families that are Donald son of John son of Angus???  I'm not exactly sure but I imagine a great number as there wasn't (over all) a lot of creativity when it came to picking a first name for children in that time period.

If you are a genealogist who is seeking to learn the truth of your linage and heritage, I strongly recommend that you look over what evidence was used to determine the line of your Clan Ian Ruadh genealogy.  Many genealogists based their works on that of Father Ewen's Fonds, which they claim as the work of Father John MacDonald which is an incorrect and misleading statement.  I believe the newer genealogical works based on the works of Father Ewen MacDonald (and supposedly that of Father John MacDonald) have done much to create confusion among researchers.

Unfortunately, most people who have invested any great amount of research (or very little for some) into their genealogy are very unlikely to take any sort of critical look at how they came to their conclusions.  Some might go through the "process" but rationalize as they go over their work to prevent themselves from seeing any issues or fallacies within their research.  As coming to the realization that you have been researching for the last 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 years on incorrect information/assumptions is too much for many people to handle.

I hope anyone connected to the Clan Ian Ruadh Chart will take the time to critically review the evidence linking their family to the chart.  Even better go to the Ontario Archives yourself and view the Fonds in person to judge for yourself. 

"Ewan Macdonald Fonds     F 970"

If I am incorrect in anything which I have stated in this post please feel free to correct me.


Hope to hear any thoughts/comments,

Peter MacDonald

Offline TALLON

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Re: clan ian ruadh of knoydart
« Reply #13 on: Tuesday 30 October 12 20:28 GMT (UK) »
“In the ancient Celtic culture, the history and laws of the people were not written down but memorized in long lyric poems which were recited by bards, in a tradition echoed by the seanchaithe.
Seanchaithe were servants to the chiefs of the tribe and kept track of important information for their clan. They were very well respected in their clan. The seanchaithe made use of a range of storytelling conventions, styles of speech and gestures that were peculiar to the Scottish folk tradition and characterized them as practitioners of their art. Although tales from literary sources found their way into the repertoires of the seanchaithe, a traditional characteristic of their art was the way in which a large corpus of tales was passed from one practitioner to another without ever being written down.”
If the Reverend Father John MacDonald had lived a generation or two earlier in Scotland he would have been the seanchaithe of the clan. Because of the Clan system there is no other group of peoples in the world that have the mountains of great genealogical information available to them. This gathering of family histories was important to Father John as a seanchaithe but more important was because he was a priest and when he married his flock he would be sure that they were not too closely related. Father John had a third reason for making sure of his accuracy in putting his Clan Ian Ruadh together as he was a descendant of that line. This is why I have been able to fit myself into his line as we were first cousins.
Father John was a genealogist and spent 65 years compiling histories. Father Ewen J MacDonald would spend over 60 years working with Father John’s great works. The most prolific genealogists were Duncan Darby MacDonald (deceased) and Alex Fraser who put all of his together in books and in charts for us amateurs to use or not use.
The key here is that these people have opened a door for us and you can enter or not. If you do then use what you find or not but thank them for their fantastic contributions without saying that most of what they did was incorrect.
I have had Father Ewen’s personal fonds for 10 years and would say that if he had all of Father John’s works in his possession he would have used it to reproduce charts as well as create new charts of his own. Never the less this very accurate information would not have been ignored as there was no other source on the Highlanders of Glengarry County.
To say that Clan Ian Ruadh (John Roy) didn’t exist is to say there were no MacDonald’s in Knoydart. Most of the MacDonald’s of Glengarry Country came from Knoydart and descended from John Roy or Clan Ian Ruadh. My own 3rd Great Grand Father Angus Ian III MacDonald who was married to Father John’s Aunt Catherine came in 1802. He was the son of Ruari, of Angus, of Neil, of Angus, of Dougall, of Ruari and of Ian Ruadh who was my 10th Great Grand Father. The information on my line came from the works of Father John and six years ago I completed the Clan Donald DNA test to prove the line back to Somerled my 20th Great Grand Father.
Anyone thinking they may be connected to this line can prove it with a simple test.


Offline Peter MacDonald

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Re: clan ian ruadh of knoydart
« Reply #14 on: Tuesday 30 October 12 22:23 GMT (UK) »
Hello Tal,

Thank you for your reply to my last post.  Here are a couple of thoughts/comments you made on your post:

1.  I fully agree with your point that Gaelic society was an oral society that passed its laws, legends and genealogies through oral traditions.  I also agree that Father John who have had vast amounts of information if he was a few generations back.

2.  Father John recorded his works in his diary.  This diary makes no specific mention of of Clan Ian Ruadh.  Further more it does not contain any charts of the Clan Ian Ruadh.  There are a few (very few) individuals who have their lines back to John Roy son of Neal in a narrative form.  As I stated in my last post Father John did not create any charts or wrote any sort of narrative that connected the various family lines.  And I state again that the greater majority of the entries only went a few generations back, with a few that went back farther (not sure of the  number but I will tally them up the next free night I have and pass along).

3.  As I stated Father John MacDonald diary is a great genealogical work in its original form.  Please note that there are no charts of showing extended family trees are in Father John's genealogical works.  Please also note that "I do thank" Father John for this work in the form which he intended it in his diary.

4.  Father Ewen MacDonald's genealogical works were based on those of Father John MacDonald.  Father Ewen created his charts through a lot of assumptions and best fit cases of names in order to put together the entries from Father John's diary.  In doing so I feel that he did Father John's genealogical work a great disservice.

5.  Final note on Father John and Ewen MacDonald and your statement:

" The key here is that these people have opened a door for us and you can enter or not. If you do then use what you find or not but thank them for their fantastic contributions without saying that most of what they did was incorrect."

   This statement wrongly lumps together the genealogical works of Father John MacDonald and Farther Ewen MacDonald as a collective work which is not the case.  Father John's works are in his diary, which contains information which he received about the individuals that were entered.  Father John did not attempt to create charts showing the inter-relationships of the family lines his diary contained.  There is no doubt that this source in and of itself is a pretty solid resource.

   Father Ewen on the other took Father John's original work and through name matching and best fit placements created his "OWN" charts (read not Father John's charts).  This results in my believe that the vast majority of Father Ewen's would be incorrect.  This said aside from the transcription of Father John's original diary it appears that many genealogists based their works on the the Fonds of Father Ewen MacDonald (it is actual hard to tell for sure as most persons don't cite their work).

6.  As for your statement:

   "To say that Clan Ian Ruadh (John Roy) did’t exist is to say there were no MacDonald’s in Knoydart. Most of the MacDonald’s of Glengarry Country came from Knoydart and descended from John Roy or Clan Ian Ruadh."

     There is no mention of Knoydart in Father John's diary.  Clan Ian Ruadh of Knoydart is an "add-in" from Father Ewen.  I think your statement is a bit of a stretch to say there would be NO MacDonalds in Knoydart if Clan Ian Ruadh didn't exist.  this is due to the fact that the MacDonalds of Knoydart descended from Allan 2nd of Clanranald, who gave to his second son Allan, all the lands of Knoydart.  There are no historical references of any sort that I have been able to find pertaining to Clan Ian Ruadh of Knoydart.

Thank you again for your comments Tal, I can see that we have a strong difference of opinion on the works of Father Ewen MacDonald.  I only hope that this dialogue will have people take a second look at their genealogy with a more critical eye for proof and to actually get out and look up the records and Fonds in order to judge for themselves.

If anyone has any further details, information, or comments to add to this topic please join in.



Hope to hear more on this topic from others (or from you again Tal).


Peter MacDonald


Offline Peter MacDonald

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Re: clan ian ruadh of knoydart
« Reply #15 on: Tuesday 30 October 12 22:51 GMT (UK) »
I forgot to ask whether or not anyone is aware of any other original works that reference Clan Ian Ruadh of Knoydart?

Peter MacDonald

Offline TALLON

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Re: clan ian ruadh of knoydart
« Reply #16 on: Wednesday 31 October 12 02:16 GMT (UK) »
The following are three exerps from a 5 page letter belonging to but not written by Father Ewen J MacDonald:

Sliochd Ailein Vic Ailein - MacDonald’s of Knoydart, Scotland

This was a branch of the Clanranald, and a branch that disappeared territorially in 1611, when the lands they possessed became the property of the Glengarry branch etc....

Another branch of the Clan Donald (but not the Clanranald) had some of its members in Knoydart, Scotland, known as Clan Ian Ruadh, a sept of MacDonald’s of the Loup. Descendants of this branch also came to Alexandria, Ontario in 1784, or thereafter etc............

Those who remained in Knoydart no doubt were to some extent displaced in their lands by clansmen of the Glengarry branch. Father John MacDonald of Alexandria, Ontario, who was born in 1782 and died in 1879, compiled a genealogical tree of the Clan Ian Ruadh of Knoydart, a branch of the MacDonald’s of the Loup, and he left also some genealogical details of descendants of Silochd Ailein Vic Ailein, who came to Alexandria.  Martin McEane Vc Rorie and his brother, Donald, were of the Clan Ian Ruadh, and these names appear in the list which I have given for the year 1628.

March 13, 1940                                MacIan

Offline Peter MacDonald

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Re: clan ian ruadh of knoydart
« Reply #17 on: Wednesday 31 October 12 03:08 GMT (UK) »
Hello Tal,

I am very familiar with that passage.  You actually sent me a copy of that document a few years ago.  It is not a letter but a transcription of documents from Scottish Records.  Prior to you sending me that document I had already come across it on the Moidart History group website.  Anyone interested can see the information in question on the following link:

http://www.moidart.org.uk/datasets/macdonaldsofkeppoch.htm

I was originally hopeful when reading it that I could make a connection from my 5G Grandfather Martin MacDonald (born ca 1755) to "Martin McEane Vc Rorie ", unfortunately I have been unable to do so.

The passage which you quoted in your post are the author's comments after a transcribed from "...1614 there appears on record in the Glengarry Charter Chest a wadset..."  the actual transcribed entry makes no mention of the Clan Ian Ruadh.

As such it is my belief that the transcriber of the original documents and author of the comments after the transcription was in correspondence with Father Ewen MacDonald.  Father Ewen MacDonald in 1944 had sent a chart and an accompanying letter to my 2nd cousin 2R Hugh Martin MacDonald (born 1899).  Father Ewen stated in the letter which was written on Department of Defence Letterhead that the was put together "using various sources".

This letter strengthens the case that Father Ewen "put things together" in the genealogy chart sent to my cousin and also that MacIan's March 13, 1940 comments about the Clan Ian Ruadh were most likely formed and shaped by information passed along from Father Ewen.

Anyone have on further information pertaining to Clan Ian Ruadh?  Or care to comment on the sources of information pertaining to Clan Ian Ruadh that have already been mentioned?  If so please post.

I am hoping to find truth what ever it may be.  If this leads me to a brick wall that will never be passed so be it.  I would rather stay stuck at my 5G Grandfather than make unsupported claims that bring me back further and confuse other researchers in the process. 


Peter