Author Topic: John Williams  (Read 16472 times)

Offline jomiskelly

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Re: John Williams
« Reply #27 on: Sunday 03 February 13 01:22 GMT (UK) »
Hi folk,

Just thought that I'd update this thread after many months of spasmodic research and great input from Llandudno Local forum members to whom I owe a great deal as well as yourselves.

I now believe John WILLIAMS to be the same as that belonging to Thomas and Emma, noted in the Caerhun Parish Baptisms Register for John.  A recent register look up discovered that Thomas was in fact a shoemaker and they were from Rowen.  This now makes John born in 1817 NOT 1821 as previously thought.  There is also a daughter Mary baptised in 1814 

It would seem that Thomas may well have died prior to 1841 as an Emma WILLIAMS with a daughter Mary and son John were living in Llarwst not born of the parish, no sign of Thomas.  A census return found earlier in the thread and again, as noted earlier were in fact at Scotland St.  Llanrst 1851, without John but with Emma's granddaughter Mary PRITCHARD (daughter of Mary WILLIAMS as noted in the 1871 census).  Emma, in 1851 is noted as a widow.  I still have not found John in 1851 and still don't know how he and his second wife Martha (ELLIOTT) met or where.  This means the will of Thomas WILLIAMS shoemaker who died in 1858 is not likely to be mine.

Re the birth date of John WILLIAMS, it has come to light in the last day or two that his remembrance card originally showed his age at death as 69 years and therefore born about 1817 but had been changed by person/ persons unknown, (when also unknown) to anyone living, to 65 making his birth abt 1822 (Died 23 Mar 1887).  I wonder if having been widowed prior to 1861 and then meeting the 20 years younger Martha ELLIOTT that he reduced the age gap to 15 years which was maintained for the remainder of his days on census returns etc - maybe hence the correction.

I have decided John WILLIAMS widower in 1861 at Bronhyfdd, is mine.  I still don't recall why I questioned it to such a point, but there you go.

John WILLIAMS and wife Martha were at Telegraph House/Inn for a number of years about 1865 till their deaths, Martha dying in 1892.  The property was then in the hands of their daughter Martha and her family until 1902 when it was sold.  It was later demolished and The Summit Hotel was built in it's place to be owned at one time by Randolph Turpin, the boxer.

I still don't know John's first wife and am hoping for a marriage record look up by a Llandudno Local enthusiast on his parents Thomas and Emma.  Emma was seemingly born about 1775 Caerhun according to the 1851 census.  I'm holding my breath otherwise this is where this line stops. LOL

Hope this is of interest
Gloucestershire - Clark(e), Cooper, Day, Gay, Hacker, Hale, King, Lines, Perriman, Summers,
Llandudno - Hughes, Jones, Owens, Williams
Northamptonshire - Collis, Elliott
Sussex -  Burgess, Colvin, Goldsmith, Midmore, Weham
Wiltshire - Fry, Hillier, Perkins, Wheeler

Offline Jo Harding

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Re: John Williams
« Reply #28 on: Wednesday 06 February 13 16:52 GMT (UK) »
Hello Jomiskelly,

Thank you for the update.

I am pleased to hear you have made such good progress on this quest.

Looking at the baptisms on Freereg, I noticed that there was a couple by the name of Thomas and Jane Williams baptising children at Caerhun from 1807 onwards. They had baptisms for the following:

Jane 1807
Elizabeth 1810.

Thomas and Emma Williams had Mary baptised there in 1814.

I just wondered whether Thomas married twice, first to Jane and then to Emma.

There is a baptism in Caerhun in 10/01/1815, John Williams, son of Evan and Jane Williams.

Others at Caerhun for John Williams on 11/05/1817, son of Owen and Jane Williams;

28/08/1818, son of Bartholomew and Jane Williams.

04/07/1819, son of Thomas and Jane Williams.

These are as well as the baptism on 02/02/1817, John William Williams, son of Thomas and Emma Williams. Abode: Ro Wen. Occupation: Shoemaker.

The parish registers are on Find my Past.

There is a marriage for John Williams at Caerhun on 15/04/1835. It says groom's parish: Llanrhos. He married Elizabeth Jones of Caerhun.

A marriage at Conwy on 10/12/1841, John Williams, father Thomas Williams, to Grace Richard, father Moses Richard. Both of full age.

Let me know if I can be of help doing look ups online.

Best wishes,

Jo.







Offline jomiskelly

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Re: John Williams
« Reply #29 on: Wednesday 06 February 13 20:48 GMT (UK) »
Hi Jo,

Thanks for the look ups.

Firstly I had also meant to update saying the pub John and Martha had WAS the Old Telegraph!

Thank you for your suggestions.  As far as I know Thomas only married once.  However Emma had Mary and John quite late in life so maybe SHE married twice?

The Thomas who, with Emma had Mary and John does seem to be the right one.  john always noted himself as being from Rowen/ caerhun and his marriage cert (marriage to Martha ELLIOTT - 2nd wife) states Thomas was a shoemaker.  It doesn't say he was deceased though.  The census returns for Emma however note her as a widow from 1851.  1841 return is too basic to know.  A lookup from the Llandudno local site suggests a Thomas WILLIAMS was buried at Caerhun on 18 Nov 1841 Age 61.  This puts him in a similar age bracket as Emma (Emma 1775 - from census returns, Thomas 1780).  I found a possible GRO ref for his death Dec Qtr 1841 Conway Vol 27 Page 229, so might try it one day soon.  I can't find anything on findmypast or freereg.

Oh this gang are so elusive .... :-\
Gloucestershire - Clark(e), Cooper, Day, Gay, Hacker, Hale, King, Lines, Perriman, Summers,
Llandudno - Hughes, Jones, Owens, Williams
Northamptonshire - Collis, Elliott
Sussex -  Burgess, Colvin, Goldsmith, Midmore, Weham
Wiltshire - Fry, Hillier, Perkins, Wheeler

Offline sgbright1965

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St Mary's Burial Records Caerhun
« Reply #30 on: Monday 25 February 13 19:31 GMT (UK) »
Can anyone tell me where I can access burial records for Caerhun St Mary's Church.  Interested in the Elias family


Offline jomiskelly

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Re: John Williams
« Reply #31 on: Monday 25 February 13 22:07 GMT (UK) »
The Caerhun Burial Records are not on FreeReg however, the Three Towns Forum folk are EXCEEDINGLY helpful and have broken down MANY walls for me.  They are local enthusiasts and may well be inclined to pop in to the archives when next passing and make a search for you if you are fairly specific in your request.

The site is www.threetownsform.co.uk  Click on "Genealogy and Research" and leave your message there.  You will probably have to register (free of charge).  Alternatively you could email the archives at conway (Google for the address) and ask for a lookup.  A basic one off request is often done out the kindess of their heart but long searches or multiples there is a standard fee.

You may find something on the familysearch website www.familysearch.org

If the deaths are after 1837 you could of course try FreeBMD for their deaths or ancestry.co.uk etc.

If it's pre 1837 my advice would be to put a request on the Three Towns Forum as first choice.

Hope this is of value
Gloucestershire - Clark(e), Cooper, Day, Gay, Hacker, Hale, King, Lines, Perriman, Summers,
Llandudno - Hughes, Jones, Owens, Williams
Northamptonshire - Collis, Elliott
Sussex -  Burgess, Colvin, Goldsmith, Midmore, Weham
Wiltshire - Fry, Hillier, Perkins, Wheeler

Offline sgbright1965

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Re: John Williams
« Reply #32 on: Tuesday 26 February 13 08:58 GMT (UK) »
Thanks for the feedback very helpful.  I am not familiar with the Three Towns Forum site and the link you sent doesnt seem to work.  The only similar name I can find relates to 3 towns in scotland.  any more pointers?

Offline jomiskelly

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Re: John Williams
« Reply #33 on: Tuesday 26 February 13 11:12 GMT (UK) »
Oops, so sorry miss spelt forum.  The link is www.threetownsforum.co.uk.  Click on enter forum and then as I say, you may need to register to start a topic.  The best section would be in genealogy and Research i guess.

Hope this works.  If not google three towns forum llandudno and I'm sure that will work too
Gloucestershire - Clark(e), Cooper, Day, Gay, Hacker, Hale, King, Lines, Perriman, Summers,
Llandudno - Hughes, Jones, Owens, Williams
Northamptonshire - Collis, Elliott
Sussex -  Burgess, Colvin, Goldsmith, Midmore, Weham
Wiltshire - Fry, Hillier, Perkins, Wheeler

Offline EmyrBorth

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Re: John Williams
« Reply #34 on: Tuesday 26 February 13 22:18 GMT (UK) »
Hi
Was at Caernarfon Archives for short period this afternoon, didn't have time to look up the Parish Burial record, but had a look at GFHS MIs for Caerhun.
There are 2 Elias graves, and a memorial inside the church:
C065 - Edward Elias, Gorswen 02/01/1893 aged 70;
William (eldest son) b. 04/09/1849 d. 05/09/1894;
Sarah (wife) 25/07/1865 aged 43;
Susannah Anne (infant daughter)  02/08/184.. (assume inscription undecipherable).

C075 - Edward youngest son of Edward Elias, Gorswen 19/05/1878 aged 21;
John Hughes Elias 2nd son b. 05/08/1852 d. 20/04/1896;
Jane widow of JHE died 23/07/1903.

X010 (inside the church) - Edward Elias, Gorswen  b. 08/05/1822  d. 02/01/1893;
Sarah his wife 25/07/1865 aged 43;
Edward youngest son 19/05/1878 aged 21.
Emyr

Offline sgbright1965

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Re: John Williams
« Reply #35 on: Monday 04 March 13 07:51 GMT (UK) »
Thanks, I will book my trip.  Since I last logged onto here I have used the www.threetownsforum.com site - it was great.  I have also discovered the Elias family link to Maern Abbey where they resided for most of the 19th century.  Some sites suggest they owned it others say it was the estate of Lord Newborough.  I know now that Edward Elias and his father William before him were the Estate Manager of the Lord and hence they may have just resided there.  I am also trying to work out whether Gorswen their home around Caerhun still exists or where it was - any help would be appreciate.   If anyone can translate Welsh and could spare a few moments I also have a marriage article I would love to be able to understand (am sure it will have valuable detail in it) it would be much appreciated.  thanks for all your help.