Author Topic: Leicestershire gypsy roots - Lementina Smith  (Read 14354 times)

Offline anniejukes

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Leicestershire gypsy roots - Lementina Smith
« on: Monday 29 March 10 18:26 BST (UK) »
Hi all.

I have been trying to find out more about a gypsy ancestor for years now and so far have had no luck!!!
I have joined numerous societies including the romany history society.  It is proving to be a real head ache  ???

If anyone can help, if anyone has come across anything or if anyone can spare a bit of time to search any parish records etc I would really appreciate some help!!!!!

My ancestor is Lementina Smith born about 1820 (using age at time of death), marriage cert just said of full age!  If going by census records she was born anywhere from 1817-1822 and she was born in Bruntingthorpe or Peatling.  She married in Barrowden and her marriage cert said that's where she was living at the time, and her father was Sam Smith.

Her and her father's occupation on her marriage cert was gypsy, she married Jonathan Popple and became a farm labourer.  I have everything I need to know after she married but nothing before and would love to know more about her roots!  Of course she may have been born in another county but like to rule out what I know.
If anyone has any resources or hints that could help then I would love to here from you!

Regards Ann-Marie
Jukes - Birmingham
Shepherd - Warwickshire
Dockery - Birmingham/County Roscommon
Haden - County Roscommon
Haven - Birmingham
Markham - County Clare
Penn - Birmingham
Perry - Bishops Stortford
Pinfield-Wells - Redditch
Bartleet - Redditch
Ruff - Worcestershire?
Crisp - Redditch area
Morris - Alvechurch
Timson - Leicestershire
Smith - Romany gypsies, Leics

Offline Mike from Leicester

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Re: Leicestershire gypsy roots - Lementina Smith
« Reply #1 on: Monday 29 March 10 22:28 BST (UK) »
Greeting’s & Welcome. …..Ann Marie.

I’ve had a good look around my Recourses…….

Although Census returns for the Popple Family is well documented .

1801 ~ 11 Head count Censuses for 
"Smith" Bruntingthorpe.
 
had  :~
1801.
Thomas Smith 2 Males 3 Female.
John Smith. 7 Males 6 Females

1811.
John Smith ...2 Males 2 Female.
Thomas. Smith ....1 Male. 2 Females


Baptisms are proving a bit more difficult owning to being of Romany dissent.

These usually take place during the Winter months whilst they are laid up for the Winter. So It could be any where really.

But I can but ask if the Records Office have “Romany Events” on file
Next time I’m at the Records Office.

I see that there was a Bastardy Order......1820.  
naming the Father as Samuel Popple
in the Billesdon District but no further details given. …….
Again I’ll try and have a look at that case files whist at the Record Office. 

Popple Burials of note found :~

St. Michael’s Parish Church.
Illston – on – the – Hill.

1879.
Jonathan Popple.
Abode…..Illston ( New Inn )
7th. May.
Aged. 63.

1888.
Lementeanor Popple.
Abode……Illston. ( New Inn ) 
9th. February.
Aged. 68.

Plus several Infant Popple burials 1820. ~ 1851.

I see that on the 1881 census returns Lementina was next door to one of my relitives......Dan Coleman. 

MIKE……..     
Census Transcriptions are Crown Copyright from National Archives

Researching :-

Isle of Wight.          Oxfordshire / Warwickshire.

Cassell.                   Powers. 
Draper.                   Hirons.
Combs.                   Botts.
Stallard.                 Hall.

Offline anniejukes

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Re: Leicestershire gypsy roots - Lementina Smith
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday 30 March 10 08:59 BST (UK) »
Hi Mike.

Thank you very much for your quick reply, I was thrilled to see your message this morning!!  ;D

Firstly you have managed to answer a big question I had about where Lementina was buried, I have travelled to Illston on the Hill and Goadby with some family to see where we came from and wandered around the cemeteries there.  We found Jonatha Popple's grave at Illston and wrongfully thought that Lementina was buried somewhere in Romford, Essex as that is where she died.  There is a space for her name on Jonathan's headstone so she must be there!

I don't suppose you know what the infants names were that were buried??  Jonathan and Lementina (as far as I have been able to find) had 6 children, only 2 survived into adulthood so would be interested to know if there were any more...

The bastardy order you mention is very interesting, I have not got a Samuel Popple on my tree but the fact that he is in the Billesdon area stands a very good chance of being ours!  Anything you find out about that would be great.

So you have Illston roots too! Fancy your relative living next door to mine!!
The search goes on for Lementina's gypsy family! 

Thanks again for your message!  If you come across anything else it would be great to hear from you again!!
Ann-Marie
Jukes - Birmingham
Shepherd - Warwickshire
Dockery - Birmingham/County Roscommon
Haden - County Roscommon
Haven - Birmingham
Markham - County Clare
Penn - Birmingham
Perry - Bishops Stortford
Pinfield-Wells - Redditch
Bartleet - Redditch
Ruff - Worcestershire?
Crisp - Redditch area
Morris - Alvechurch
Timson - Leicestershire
Smith - Romany gypsies, Leics

Offline anniejukes

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Re: Leicestershire gypsy roots - Lementina Smith
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday 30 March 10 09:07 BST (UK) »
Hi again!

I don't want to take advantage but I have just realised you mentioned those early census you have.  Have you come across my Popple's on these early census?  Jonathan Popple was born about 1817, son of Thomas and Jane Popple, they married in about 1802 in Tugby.  Thomas's father was William, Jane's maiden name was Pateman.

Regards
Ann-Marie
Jukes - Birmingham
Shepherd - Warwickshire
Dockery - Birmingham/County Roscommon
Haden - County Roscommon
Haven - Birmingham
Markham - County Clare
Penn - Birmingham
Perry - Bishops Stortford
Pinfield-Wells - Redditch
Bartleet - Redditch
Ruff - Worcestershire?
Crisp - Redditch area
Morris - Alvechurch
Timson - Leicestershire
Smith - Romany gypsies, Leics


Offline Mike from Leicester

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Re: Leicestershire gypsy roots - Lementina Smith
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday 30 March 10 17:36 BST (UK) »
Greeting’s Again….Ann Marie…….

I held back from posting those infant Burials until I heard from you……..

 :).....EYES DOWN. !! …….. :)

St: Michael’s Parish Church.
Illston – on – the – Hill
.

1843.
Parish Burial Register No’. 80.
Jonathan Popple.
Abode……Illston.
14th. October.
Aged….An Infant.( Usually means did not make 1st Birthday.)

1843.
Reg. No’. 82..

Rebecca Popple.
Abode……Illston.
22nd. December.
Aged….An Infant.

1846.
Reg. No’. 96.
Jonathan Popple.
Abode….Illston.
26th. January.
Aged…..6 Days Old.

1850.
Reg, No’. 99.
Christians Popple.
Abode……Illston.
9th. January.
Aged….3 days Old.

1851.
Reg, No’. 104.
Jonathan Popple.
Abode. …Illston.
28th. August.
Aged. …..5 Days Old.

I see from the Census returns the Family were in the Goadby District also.

 
GOADBY.

St: John the Baptist Parish Church.


1820.
Burial Register No’. 13.

Matthias Popple.
Abode….Goadby.
30th. April.
Aged….1 Month Old.

1840.
Reg. No’. 40.
Nathaniel. Popple.
Abode….Goadby
15th. January.
Aged……1 Month Old.

1841.
Reg. No’. 50.
Nathaniel Popple.
Abode…..Goadby.
27th. May.
Aged…..3 Months Old.

1842.
Reg. No’. 54.
Claria Popple.
Abode. ….Goadby.
20th. October.
Aged……1 Month Old.

1844.
Reg. No’. 58.
Eliza Popple.
Abode. …….Goadby.
Aged…..3 Weeks Old.

St: Thomas A Becket Parish Church.
Tugby.


MARRIAGE. :~

1802.

Thomas Popple. Of the Parish Illston – on – the – Hill.
Jane Pateman. Of this Parish.

Marriage in this Church
This Eight Day of October.
By Banns.

BAPTISMS :~ Children of Thomas & Jane Popple.

1803.
William…..Bapt. ?? no actual date given. Buried 1st. March. An Infant.
1804. Mary…….Bapt. ..16th. April.

BAPTISMS :~ GOADBY ......St: John the Baptist. .

Children of Thomas & Jane Popple.
1810. Thomas…..Bapt.20th. May. Died 8th. July.
1811. Thomas. Bapt……5th. May.
1823. Matthias Bapt…..17th. August.
1833. William. ..Bapt. 20th. January.

MIKE…….. 

Census Transcriptions are Crown Copyright from National Archives

Researching :-

Isle of Wight.          Oxfordshire / Warwickshire.

Cassell.                   Powers. 
Draper.                   Hirons.
Combs.                   Botts.
Stallard.                 Hall.

Offline anniejukes

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Re: Leicestershire gypsy roots - Lementina Smith
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday 30 March 10 20:20 BST (UK) »
Hi Mike

Thanks a lot for all of your help!!  We will be visiting Birmingham and Leicester record office over the next few months, so if there is anything we can do for you let me know!!

Again, thanks and if you think of anything else you think might be of interest, would be grea to hear from you!

Regards
Ann-Marie
Jukes - Birmingham
Shepherd - Warwickshire
Dockery - Birmingham/County Roscommon
Haden - County Roscommon
Haven - Birmingham
Markham - County Clare
Penn - Birmingham
Perry - Bishops Stortford
Pinfield-Wells - Redditch
Bartleet - Redditch
Ruff - Worcestershire?
Crisp - Redditch area
Morris - Alvechurch
Timson - Leicestershire
Smith - Romany gypsies, Leics

Offline Mike from Leicester

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Re: Leicestershire gypsy roots - Lementina Smith
« Reply #6 on: Wednesday 07 April 10 22:58 BST (UK) »
Greeting’s again… Marina Ann .

Sorry the right man to ask at the Records Office about Gypsy Records within Leicestershire was not on duty today...... 

But I managed a few moments spare to have a look at that Bastardy Order 1820.

The order was taken out by…… Ann  BENT
On oath before Thomas Billinger.  Magistrate

Naming Samuel Smith a Labourer of Billesdon as the Father.  

A male Bastard was delivered to Ann Bent.....


MIKE……
Census Transcriptions are Crown Copyright from National Archives

Researching :-

Isle of Wight.          Oxfordshire / Warwickshire.

Cassell.                   Powers. 
Draper.                   Hirons.
Combs.                   Botts.
Stallard.                 Hall.

Offline anniejukes

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Re: Leicestershire gypsy roots - Lementina Smith
« Reply #7 on: Thursday 08 April 10 19:52 BST (UK) »
Hi, thanks for looking into that for me!

Very interesting, I have had to read up on bastardy orders because I didn't know a lot about them!

Did you see who the child was that the order was with reference to?

Thanks again
Ann-Marie
Jukes - Birmingham
Shepherd - Warwickshire
Dockery - Birmingham/County Roscommon
Haden - County Roscommon
Haven - Birmingham
Markham - County Clare
Penn - Birmingham
Perry - Bishops Stortford
Pinfield-Wells - Redditch
Bartleet - Redditch
Ruff - Worcestershire?
Crisp - Redditch area
Morris - Alvechurch
Timson - Leicestershire
Smith - Romany gypsies, Leics

Offline POCKET DRAGON

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Re: Leicestershire gypsy roots - Lementina Smith
« Reply #8 on: Wednesday 11 August 10 17:20 BST (UK) »
Hi Ann-Marie,

I've trawled through ALL baptism records on IGI lists for the Leicestershire area. There are only two Clementina Smiths (no Lementina or anything like it). One I've already told you about on another thread;
bap 11th Dec 1816, Appleby Magna - parents Joseph Smith & Reserva
the other is;
bap 3rd Sep 1854, Swepstone, Leicester - parents John Smith & Ann.

I too am desperate to find out more about my 3x g-grandmother, but I now don't know where to look. As you can see, neither one of the records fits with what we know about her, so I think she must've been baptised in another county, or not baptised at all!

It's so frustrating!!  >:(
Renshaw: Nottinghamshire
Popple: Leicestershire
Woodcock: Notts/Lincs
Millership: Warwickshire to Notts
Smith: Lincs to Leics/Notts (Lementina c1821 - possible gypsy family, married Jonathan Popple)
Wood: Derbyshire to Notts
Lewin: Leicestershire
Lamin: Notts
Jarvis: Derbyshire to Notts
Walker: Eakring (Notts)
Randall: Notts
Wardle: Shropshire/Staffordshire
Comery: Notts
Bilton: Basil Alwyn, b.1926, mother Gertrude. Adopted at birth by Randall family, Notts.