tying up some loose ends, Rae family

[Thisty]

At a complete standstill on my direct line so I thought I'd finally dust off some of my Gt Grandfather's siblings and see if I could find out what happened to them (and possibly make a breakthrough that way?)

Completely stuck on two of the sisters though so am hoping that some kind soul may be able to help?

Looking for Sarah Ann Rae born 1855 in Newcastle (presumably her parents were visiting someone at the time) and Margaret Rae born 1851 in Jedburgh.  Both daughters of William Rae and Margaret Laurie/Lawrie/Lowrie (spelling varies on differing certificates).

Any information at all would be most welcome ... marriage? death? children? they both appear to have just vanished into thin air!


can anyone help?


Thanks

[kerry1212]

sarah ann and margaret are with mother margaret in 1881
sarah is a millworker unemployed, mother margaret is a former domestic servant, and margaret is a millworker
 all living in 69 canongate it says margaret is the grandaughter born 1867 jedburgh roxburghshire

1861 sarah is with her mother and grandmother all living at 19 queens street roxburghshire

Jane Kidd 73 sarahs grandmother
Margaret Rae 39
George Rae 17 1844 jedburgh
Jane Rae 15 1846
Robert Rae 13 1848
Margaret Rae 10 1851
Sarah Rae 7 1854
John Rae 4 1857
George Fleming 4
Sarah Fleming 53
Thomas Fleming 36 janes son
Sarah Fleming 33 nee kidd  janes daughter
George Fleming 14 sarahs son

kerry
 
 

[kerry1212]

john rae b 1857 in 1901 census living at 82 bonaly road g floor he is a stone mason



John Rae 44
Agnes Rae 40 1861 jedburgh
Margaret Rae 19 1882 ""
Agnes Rae 17 1884 "" dressmaker
Jane Rae 14 1887 dressmakers apprentice
Isabella Rae 11 1890 scholar
Sarah A Rae 9 1892 scholar
Lillie Rae 7 1894
Effie Rae 4 1897
John Rae 2 1899

kerry
 
 

[Thisty]

Thanks Kerry .

I had the 1861 census but did not pick up that the Fleming family were part of the same household? will have to re-visit that record.  do you think I'd be right in assuming that if Margaret and Sarah were still living with their mother in 1881 at the ages of 30 and 27 (ish) that they probably never married? if so why on earth can I not find a death for either of them??

Hadn't found the 1901 census for John either so thanks for that one ... had his wifes name but that was as far as I had got with him, oddly enough he seems to have given his children pretty much the same names as his brother did (Robert, my gt gt grandfather) ie: Margaret, Jane. Isabella and Sarah

much appreciated

Lou

[pz40]

Margaret Rae (nee Lawrie) born abt. 1822 Jedburgh has cropped up in my family history research - and I have come across several earlier messages on rootschat about her - mainly querying her parentage.  The question posed (some years back) was whether she was the daughter of Jane Kidd (as listed on the 1851, 1861 census records and also on Jane Kidd's death record 1875) - or the daughter of David Laurie and Margaret Laurie (M/S Laurie) as recorded on Margaret Rae's death certificate (1909 Galashiels).  I do have copies of all these sources mentioned and there is no doubt in my mind that they all relate to the same Margaret Rae (nee Lawrie).  Her date of birth, estimated from her age on census records and her death record, was 1822/23, and the informant at death was her son George Rae, so not a stranger to the Rae/Lawry family history.

I know that Jane Kidd had a brother David Laurie - and that David's wife was Margaret - but her M/S was Oliver, not Laurie.  There is a gravestone inscribed with their names in Jedburgh Abbey Cemetery.  Unfortunately it seems that the year of Margaret Oliver's death on the gravestone is difficult to decipher - it has been transcribed as 18(2)0 - so clearly some doubt as to third number.  Also, I have failed to trace any likely death record for her at any date between 1800 and 1841.  I think she must certainly have been dead by 1841, because David Laurie is living then without any wife or family - at 19 Queen Street, Jedburgh - the house occupied by his sister Jane Kidd in 1851.

It seems to me that the date of Margaret Oliver's death is crucial, because if she did die in 1820 - she can't have been the mother of Margaret (later Rae), who was born in 1822/23.

I am really hoping that someone can take this line of research a step further and solve this family history mystery.  I'm stuck and would welcome any help or suggestions.  Many thanks for reading this.

[Thisty]

Hi pz40,

thanks for the info, I wasn't aware that Jane had a brother named David so that will give me something to work on at least.  To be honest I was leaning towards the idea that Margaret was actually illegitimate and that the "father" named on her death certificate was just to save face as it were (perhaps picking an Uncles name was the obvious choice?) 

I also put the name "Margaret" on the death certificate as mother down to human error ....... possibly a bad assumption but as Jane Kidd nee Laurie is present all through the census records as being Margaret's mother I can see no reason to doubt that she truly is.

However, thanks to the new brother I think I'll get back on the trail of this family and see what I can turn up

[pz40]

Hi Thisty

Good to get for message.  What you say actually confirms my thinking - that Margaret was the illegitimate daughter of Jane Lawrie - born before Jane married James Kidd in 1830. However, George Rae, maybe for some very good reason, wanted to cover up the illegitimacy, so wrote the names of David and Margaret Laurie as Margaret's parents.  It was possibly even the version that Margaret Rae told her children.  They would not have been aware of what information Margaret had given for census returns and Jane Kidd's death record.   Since Jane did have a brother David, with a wife Margaret, then they were the most obvious names for George Rae to choose.  He probably didn't know that David's wife was a Margaret Oliver - so just 'plumped for' the same M/S - Laurie.

I can also add further support to this version of the story.  The reason that I came across Jane Laurie (later Kidd) in my research was that I suspected her to be the single mother of a Jane 'Melville', born in Jedburgh in abt 1820.  Jane 'Melville' married a Robert Lamb in 1839 - and in 1841 they were living at 19 Queens St. (same house as David Laurie) - with their young two sons - David Laurie Lamb and Andrew Lamb.  Jane Lamb was named as Jane Melville when she married - but on her gravestone she is named as Jane Lowrie (yet another spelling!) and on her death record she is described as the illegitimate daughter of Jane Laurie, former domestic servant. 

So it looks to me as if Jane Laurie, brother of David, may have had two illegitimate daughters - Jane in abt 1820 (no baptism record) and Margaret in abt 1822.  But it seems that David Laurie played a significant part in their early lives - hence Jane Lamb named her eldest son David Laurie Lamb - and George Lamb chose David Laurie and his wife Margaret as 'stand-ins' for Margaret's parents.

Hope all this helps to confirm your thinking.

Now a general query - does anyone know whether they kept such documents as Bastardy Bonds in Scotland? These existed in England about this time and, in cases where benefit was needed for the single mother and child, were drawn up as a contract to make sure that the child's father contributed a regular set sum towards the child's upbringing.

Cheers everyone - pz40

[terianne]

curious how in the 1851 & 1861 the family were living in Queen st with jane Kidd (margaret's mother) but no mention of William on the census' (possible worked away or visitor elsewhere, both times) also both sisters margaret and sarah are listed as born in Jedburgh - no mention of Newcastle.

Rae is a very common name in the jedburgh & oxnam area

[pz40]

Apart from the marriage record for Margaret Laurie and William Rae 19 JAN 1844 Jedburgh, I can find no trace of William Rae at all.  I assume he was still alive in abt 1856/7 when John Rae was born (aged 4 on 1861 census) - but he seems to be a bit of a mystery man. 

Has anyone found a birth record in Scotland for John Rae, son of William and Margaret Rae?  There should be one if he was born from 1855 onwards.

I can also find no birth registration for a Sarah or Sarah Ann Rae (variant spellings) in Newcastle between 1850 and 1855 - so this remains a bit of a mystery as well.