German/Polish/Jewish immigrants

[Rena]

Thanks Rena

Yes...my Lutheran German ancestors anglicised their names immediately (they came over 1861/2).....I don't know if the others were Jewish or if Lyon Asher simply had a very traditional taste in names.....Abraham/Isaac/Rueben /Rosa etc.

I had a fascinating surf looking for "Asher"

<<A number of scholars have proposed that the tribe of Asher actually originated as the Weshesh group of Sea Peoples>>
http://wapedia.mobi/en/Asher_%28Bible%29
====

<<Around 1800 in Germany, Hebrew names were often back-formed from the kinnuy, so Judah Loeb (lion) became Aryeh (lion) Loeb and Issachar Ber (bear) became Dov (bear) Ber.>>

Could your Lyon Asher have originally been Asher Lyon = Asher Loeb?
http://jewishwebindex.com/names.htm
===

I've mistakenly closed the tab on a website which gave an alternative Polish name (with variable spellings) for Asher which could be a red herring or maybe not.

Good luck

[greyingrey]

Thank you very much....that's fascinating. It's quite difficult, because there are "native Ashers" as well, meaning dwellers near ash trees or people who worked with ash wood (the two would  often go together of course) ....& quite a few of them  gravitated towards the East Midlands during the Industrial Revolution. I've looked back through one particular branch in Nottingham because there  an Asher there married a Clementine from Derby & she moved back to Derby with her very many children when she was widowed & worked as a char woman....it was in the right part of Nottingham for where Lyon's family wound up too..... & I'm sure my great aunt used to talk about her ("aunt/great aunt Clemmie")...a bit of a character by all accounts. I've traced that branch back to 1700, but they seem to have been happily working as farm labourers in the same village & they all have "very English" names.....out of dozens & dozens of children, I found one Joshua...but the rest were all Johns/Roberts/Williams/Annes /Marys. So I don't know whether Lyon's family had some connection with them & that branch had been in Britain much longer & had taken English names, but they'd managed to keep in touch or if my memory's playing tricks & there was no connection. Lyon's family may not have been Jewish.....grrrrrr....

[lainie3961]

Just on the subject on anglicising names - how do you find out if they have? I am led to believe that some of my ancestors are jewish, by religion, but have found no evidence. I am having trouble finding the birth of my g.g.grandfather. who gives his place of birth as Kettering in Northamptonshire - but cannot find any record. I am wondering whether he was in fact an immigrant.

How would I know if his name had been anglicised?

Elaine

[greyingrey]

He may have been Jewish, but still had a very English name.....he could have been Jewish but still have been living in Britain for a long time....it's just that, in the nineteenth century, there were so many foreigners coming into Britain (the number of foreigners living in London doubled in one decade...I THINK it was 1850/60,)....& with the Industrial Revolution & instability in several parts of Europe, quite a lot of artisans/working people came over.....& the number of Jews increased with this phenomenon.

I can see it with my Protestant German families, because the names alternate in the records....for example, I've got one family who start off with the first record as Dreher...as soon as they're in Liverpool they become Dryer (a common name in Lancashire...more especially in Manchester)....& I've got a gg grandfather & a g grandfather who are referred to as Charles one minute & Christian the next. It's quite interesting with one of the women....she alternates between Edith & Ada....after a while it becomes clear that her birth name was Edith (this is the name she passes on to her daughter...no sign of an Ada & she increasingly refers to herself as Edith) I guess what happened was that someone asked her what her name was & she said "Edith" in German/with a strong German accent....the way you pronounce that E in German is like the English A in Ada, not like the English E in Edith....so I guess someone must have assumed she meant that.

It's more difficult when you're looking for a surname.....someone like Berlin Bob is better versed in these things than I am.....try putting down here what the English surname is you've been looking for & ask Bob to look at the post & he might be able to make a suggestion as to what the original surname could have been. Doesn't always work, of course, but worth a try if you're stuck....

[greyingrey]

You can see it quite clearly in one instance in Lyon's family...Isaac/Abraham/Rueben just go....Joseph stays as it is (because it was also still being used as an English name)....Lyon named one son Jacob...that is then passed down to one of his grandsons, but after that it's converted into James.

Very awkward, though, when you haven't got a starting point......

[Rena]

In national archives catalogue

J 55/2/149     More information Lyons v Elliott. Parties:
Asher Lyons v Reverend Edward King Elliott. Pleadings from: Kings Bench. Date 1876

[greyingrey]

Thanks a lot, Rena. "My" Lyon Asher died in 1860, but this could be another member of the family & it could help me to locate them. Can I order a copy of this document ? (sorry, newbie here....you've noticed of course) I know there's a website about a Jewish family with the surname Lyon in Ipswich, but Ipswich seems a bit of an unlikely connection to my lot....but you never know.....

[Rena]

Thanks a lot, Rena. "My" Lyon Asher died in 1860, but this could be another member of the family & it could help me to locate them. Can I order a copy of this document ? (sorry, newbie here....you've noticed of course) I know there's a website about a Jewish family with the surname Lyon in Ipswich, but Ipswich seems a bit of an unlikely connection to my lot....but you never know.....

Hi there
I was working in the dark as to dates.  If I'd known I would probably not have brought this person to your attention :-)
Go to this A2A manorial archive site: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/

and click onto  "Advanced Search".  Then into the "exact phrase" section enter the full name.  You'll see there is one result, keep clicking on any underlined writing and it will lead you to the archive address - which in this case is Nottingham archives (county lines keep moving hence you will find one county records in another county's archives). 

As for the Ipswich, Suffolk, family - I usually look at the GENUKI website (www.genuki.org.uk) to see how far/how easy it was for travel - as it was a principal port and hence had a lot of trade I'm not surprised a branch lived there.... did a relative venture inland to open up markets in the hinterland?  My Germans and their relatives travelled between Yorkshire and Lincolnshire plus ventured down to London for seasonal trade - so it's not surprising when a youngster marries and the family tentacles spread.

Good luck

[greyingrey]

Thank you, Rena....sorry I didn't mean to cause extra work, but, actually it's not lost because it could well be another branch of the family & it could all help me to pinpoint them....& yes, of course, what you said about Ipswich is true. I've got a copy of the 1820 summons for not paying the poor tax...that was certainly Lyon....