Author Topic: James Ramsay, minister in Kelso  (Read 3171 times)

Offline Br1gau

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James Ramsay, minister in Kelso
« on: Thursday 13 May 10 13:22 BST (UK) »
Hi,

I'm looking for a grave/MI/general information for James Ramsay, minister in Kelso from 1707 - 1749, twice Moderator of the General Assembly, Church of Scotland.  Died 3rd July 1749. Believed to be buried at Kelso.
Also,
Wife 1: Alison Nisbet, dau of William Nisbet, merchant in Eyemouth.
Wife 2: Margaret Borthwick, widow of John Lauder, minister in Eccles.
Known children from m.1:
William Ramsay, LL D of Templehall, Coldingham
Elizabeth Ramsay, married Robert Parks, minister in Foulden
John Ramsay, born ca1710
Jean Ramsay married William Hume, younger of Sclaithouse.

Any help with these people would be really very welcome.

br1gau

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Offline Sunlaws

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Re: James Ramsay, minister in Kelso
« Reply #1 on: Friday 14 May 10 21:34 BST (UK) »
Hi

Sadly, the list of Monumental Inscriptions for Kelso does not contain any mention of a headstone for this family, either in existing headstones or in ones previously transcribed but now lost.

James Ramsay is mentioned in the list of ministers in the same book, where it says he was minister from 1701, though this is not in agreement with the account of James Ramsay in 'Two centuries of Border Church Life' which gives the dates as 1707-49, as you said.

There are 25 pages in this book about James Ramsay's ministry, but I presume this is where you already got your information from?

Regards,
Lesley

















































































































































































































































































































































Bradley, Gledhill, Dodson, Norcliffe, Kaye, Matthewman- all Berry Brow/Almondbury
Webster- Northowram
Brick wall: Maria Blaymires  c 1800 Northowram

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Offline Br1gau

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Re: James Ramsay, minister in Kelso
« Reply #2 on: Saturday 15 May 10 00:18 BST (UK) »
Hi Lesley,

Yes I have read 'Border Lives' and also a later biography by John Warwick, 'Moderators of the Church of Scotland 1690 - 1740.'  The dates I have are : Licensed 1/11/1692, called to Eyemouth 19/05/1693, called to Kelso 5/09/1706 but not inducted until 24/09/1707 because of some opposition to his posting. 

Curiously, James Ramsay was succeeded at Eyemouth by John Cuming, later minister in Humbie, Channelkirk.  James Ramsay's son, William later married John Cumming's daughter, Ann.  She and their 4th son, Capt David Ramsay RN, his wife and several of their children are buried at St Michael's, Inveresk, including David's eldest son, Major William Norman Ramsay, lauded for saving two of Wellington's guns in the Peninsular Wars of 1811. He died at Waterloo and his body was apparantly smuggled back to Scotland in a box labelled 'soap.'

For someone who was such a significant public man in his time, James Ramsay is otherwise very elusive and although at Kelso for 42 years, he seems to have left no mark, there is much speculation as to his origin.  I believe he came from Forfar. 

My family are descended from William Ramsay & Ann Cumming's daughter, Essex.

I was hoping to find some small sign of James at Kelso, albeit such a long time ago.  Thank you so much for looking.

regards br1gau

Offline Sunlaws

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Re: James Ramsay, minister in Kelso
« Reply #3 on: Saturday 15 May 10 08:53 BST (UK) »
Hi

Was James Ramsay known to have had a son Gilbert? There is a memorial in the Purvis Aisle section of the graveyard, which was generally reserved for the great and good of Kelso, mentioning Ann Ramsay, daughter of Gilbert Ramsay and Katherine Karr, who died in 1804 aged 74. Significantly, it says of the memorial 'Top panel missing'. I can photograph it if it proves to be of interest.

James Ramsay is not among the 47 signatories of a petition by the pricipal (male) inhabitants of Kelso asking for the release of one of their townsmen who had been implicated in the 1715 rebellion, but I suppose ministers kept themselves aloof from such things.

Regards,

Lesley
Bradley, Gledhill, Dodson, Norcliffe, Kaye, Matthewman- all Berry Brow/Almondbury
Webster- Northowram
Brick wall: Maria Blaymires  c 1800 Northowram

Offline Sunlaws

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Re: James Ramsay, minister in Kelso
« Reply #4 on: Saturday 15 May 10 09:11 BST (UK) »
Further to my last post, I now see (from Alistair Moffat's 'Kelsae') that Ramsay had 'discreetly warned any Jacobite sympathisers that he would note their names and make them known to the government in the aftermath of the rising'

Moffat remarks,'His conduct before and during the rebellions shows his tremendous influence as a community leader'.

So, not surprising that he is absent from the list of signatories, but it would be good to be a fly on the wall in Kelso in 1715- interesting times!

Regards,

Lesley
Bradley, Gledhill, Dodson, Norcliffe, Kaye, Matthewman- all Berry Brow/Almondbury
Webster- Northowram
Brick wall: Maria Blaymires  c 1800 Northowram

Offline Br1gau

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Re: James Ramsay, minister in Kelso
« Reply #5 on: Saturday 15 May 10 10:22 BST (UK) »
Hi Lesley,

Yes, really fascinating times!

Gilbert is not a name that I've come across. If I am right about the Forfar origins - there are deeds and writs of 'temple lands or Mureheads in parish of Monifieth of Forfar 1505 - 1604' in Capt. David Ramsay's papers at the NAS - Henry seems to be a predominant name up there but that hasn't come through. Of course, a lot of my questions could be answered if I could just get up to Edinburgh!

I've not read Alistair Moffat, the account of that episode I have is that in 1745 the Government asked all ministers to furnish a list of Jacobite sympathisers in their parish.  Ramsay invited those he thought might be to the manse, asked them if they knew of any Jacobites amongst them, of course there was a resounding 'No, I don't know of any,' so he was able to oblige the Government directive without betraying his parishoners.  Ramsay of course was against the Catholic and  Anglican churches, but part of it was that he was also against the Union, wanting to keep the Church of Scotland separate from Government interference. 

If you want some heavy reading, try his four pamphlets of 1703.  I can send them as pdf files?  Are there any photographs of Kelso Church available? I've not found any on the web.

Regards,
br1gau

Offline Br1gau

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Re: James Ramsay, minister in Kelso
« Reply #6 on: Saturday 15 May 10 11:15 BST (UK) »
Further to my last post - I had alook on IGI for Gilbert Ramsay & Katherine Karr, they were married in Edinburgh 1719.  Other children, apart from the Ann you found were Elizabeth, John, Jean, Mary, David and 1 male birth, three were christened at Kelso.  David was the eldest, so possibly the grandfather's name.  There are quite a few Gilberts born in Monifieth, but one with a father David, born 1796.

Karr, or Kerr, I believe, was the family name of the Duke of Roxburghe.  James' son William Ramsay of Templehall was factor for the Duke and also for the forfieted estate of Henry Kerr of Graden.

All very compelling!

regards, br1gau

Offline Roncac

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Re: James Ramsay, minister in Kelso
« Reply #7 on: Saturday 30 June 18 08:34 BST (UK) »
I know this is belated but perhaps someone will find it useful.

There is an Index of Scottish Presbyterian Ministers embracing Church of Scotland, Free Church. United Presbyterian etc ministers. Look here: http://ecclegen.com/general-index-r/#Ramage,%20William Scroll down and you will find Ramsay, James: 1693, Eyemouth, and various references where a little is said about his family and a bit more about his ministry.

Offline alan14578

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Re: James Ramsay, minister in Kelso
« Reply #8 on: Sunday 08 July 18 12:35 BST (UK) »
In G.A.C.Binnies book "the churches and graveyards of Roxburghshire pages 195 under Kelso churches he talks for a page about James Ramsay and his outspoken view about the Jacobite causes and other remarks about the Kelso Seceders he made to the General assembly .
\Died in 1749 but no mention of his burial place.
turnbull- Scottish Borders ,Caithness and East Lothian
waddell-roxburghshire
foord/ford -perthshire and borders
crosbie-scot borders
galloway-scot borders