organ builders

[JustinL]

Hello Peter,

Far be it for me to dissuade you from following your chosen path of research. However, I put the following points to you:

Shepton Beauchamp (Somerset) is about 35 miles as the crow flies from Exeter. Most of the population of 18th century England may never have strayed more than 10 miles from their home village. Poor roads and the law of settlement saw to that. Moreover, nearby Yeovil would have been a more logical destination. It is extremely improbable that a couple would have one child in Exeter, but the rest in Shepton Beauchamp.

The keeper of the parish registers of St. George was the lazy sort (the genealogist's nightmare) and did not record the names of any of the mothers of children baptised in the 1750s and 1760s. None of these children were illegitimate. Illegitimate children were always recorded with their mother. The only course of action in these circumstances is to look for a likely marriage in the same or neighbouring parishes in the right timeframe.

On 9 Nov 1760, George England, butcher of the parish of St. Olave, married Anne Bear of the parish of St. Mary Major, in the parish church of St. Mary Major.

Four children of George and Anne England were baptised in the parish of St. Olave between 1768 and 1777. Fortunately, the keeper of these registers was more thorough.

Sarah dau. of George England was buried in St. Olave on 30 Dec 1764.

St. George's and St. Olave's are neighbouring parishes in the centre of Exeter.

As I wrote in previous post, the original parish records can be viewed on findmypast.co.uk

Justin

[BelletTiverton]

Hi Justin
That is brilliant information to know 😊
You know more about my family than I do
I do know George Butcher was a butcher and his son was an organist in Tiverton in 1839.
I know that as I have a copy of his will which gives his profession.  I also know his son was an organist when Thalberg visited Tiverton in 1839
http://www.bristol.ac.uk/music/CHOMBEC/chombec-news-8.pdf
I also know Richard had a son William who moved to Clerkenwell to work for a bank.

I do appreciate your posting the marriage band showing George England to be a butcher.  That is clearly my ancestor who married Anne Bear.
The dates of the children born from 1768 to 1777 and especially Susan who died in 1764 make me think that unless there was a particularly complex relationship going on he is unlikely to be the organ maker.
Strange relationships do sometimes crop up I am watching the Archbishop Justin Wellby marry Harry and Megan
I bumped into him when he was a lowly bishop on the way to a prayer meeting,  I am aware he is illegitimate.
So odd things do happen.
I now think it unlikely with the evidence you kindly posted.
I know DNA often sheds light on things,  I have a DNA link to a cousin who has an ancestor called Westaway almost certainly one of Mary Westaways ancestors.
Anyways when George butcher married I am assuming he is the son of George England born 4th March 1738 in Exeter.
On a more general point about the organist George England I know the wiki entry is clearly wrong.
I doubt he related to me but at what age does an organ maker make his first organ?
The organist was building the organ at St Stephen Walbrook in 1760 
Is there any way of knowing the normal age when an organ maker makes his first organ.
I may try to find which of the George Englands born is most likely to be the organist.
For curiosity now.

Thanks

Peter

[JustinL]

Hi Peter,

I am glad to have been of some help.

The recurrent occupation of butcher does pretty much clinch the father-son relationship.

I would agree that George E. senior was baptised on 4th March 1738/9 and was the son of Thomas.

Thomas Ingland married Sarah Preston on 7 Feb 1730/1 in St. Olave's parish church.

I believe the England family had moved to Exeter from the village of Heavitree, just outside Exeter. I'll leave you to trace them.

One more thing. Organists do not build organs, they play them 

Like numerous other researchers, I have drawn a blank on the origins of the organ-building Englands. As for the age when an OB built his first organ, take a look at this website https://alanjohnphillips.weebly.com/gorgeous-georgians.html

Cheers, Justin

[BelletTiverton]

Hi Justin
I think you have not understood what I said, there is only one butcher born 1766.
The marriage certificate from 1760 you kindly posted ties in with his will from 1837. In both cases he is named a butcher.
I have no idea of the occupation of his father except he was called George.
I was saying earlier that organ buiders are more likely to have sons who are organists than agricultural labourers.   We will have to agree to differ on that.   By being apprenticed by GPE I think your ancestors would have been more likely to be musical or have a middle class profession at the least.  The middle class were not thick on the ground then
I did see the record of the births of the children born to George and Anne  including Sarah born in 1768
I did not see any children born before 1766, I am sure you have one and do not need to see it.
Are you saying that they had another child Sarah who died whilst an infant who was buried in 1764
It is that date of 1764 which has given me a rethink as George England butcher was baptised on the 27th July 1766.
George England the organist was married to Mary Vicars on the 20th July 1766
All the best
Peter

[BelletTiverton]

Apologies Justin

Both George married in 1760 and his son were butchers

Teach me to watch the TV and type at the same time.

I still believe that Organ builders are more likely to have middle class children and hence organists.

[JustinL]

You will find this interesting http://www.exetermemories.co.uk/em/_streets/butchers.php

For me, the socio-historical context in which our ancestors lived is one of the most fascinating aspects of genealogy.

I am certainly not in a position to question your theory about organ builders and the emerging middle class, as I have only really researched my own organ-building ancestor, James Butler. He appears to have struggled financially and was buried in a public grave.

Justin

[BelletTiverton]

Hi Justin

That was very kind of you to find that article I am rather squeemish if it was down to me the ox would die of old age

Thanks again

Peter