Author Topic: organ builders  (Read 7559 times)

Offline BelletTiverton

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 17
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: organ builders
« Reply #9 on: Wednesday 09 May 18 19:56 BST (UK) »

Thanks again Jenifer

I am trying to get the birth dates of the "first" George England and his associate "John England"

Offline jennifer c

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 7,759
  • Latest bud on my family tree
    • View Profile
Re: organ builders
« Reply #10 on: Wednesday 09 May 18 19:59 BST (UK) »
There is a John England on Anc..... receiving the freedom of the city of London, but I do not have access to it, perhaps someone else can help.

Jennifer
Stevens /Godfrey /Rudgley /Claridge/ Gipson /George /Bliss
Census information is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Mabel Bagshawe

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 7,826
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: organ builders
« Reply #11 on: Wednesday 09 May 18 20:20 BST (UK) »
There is a John England on Anc..... receiving the freedom of the city of London, but I do not have access to it, perhaps someone else can help.

Jennifer

There are a few in the collection - some are apprenticeships. None seem organ related - glaziers, wheelwrights and cooks

Offline BelletTiverton

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 17
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: organ builders
« Reply #12 on: Saturday 12 May 18 15:32 BST (UK) »
I have two more peices of information and will start with the clearest on first

http://www.bristol.ac.uk/music/CHOMBEC/chombec-news-8.pdf

On page 5 of the above it mentions Richard England who was an organist from Tiverton in 1839

This must be my ancestor Richard Westaway England who was living in England then



Offline BelletTiverton

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 17
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: organ builders
« Reply #13 on: Saturday 12 May 18 15:41 BST (UK) »

I do not have my own copy of ancestry at home and use the library but I went there and discovered although I can not find a birth certificate for Gerorge England born in 1735

There are about 13 "family trees where he appears"  on the internet site ancestry

I realise I have repeated some information below but the 6 bullet points are things I have researched.   Since my last posting I have found the marriage date of "George England" the organist to Mary Vicars as the 20th June 1766.


Also if the ancestry trees are correct my ancestor was adopted and not the natural son of his mother

I do not know is how accurate the ancestry family trees are is they were my ancestor is clearly adopted 7 days after "George England" the organist is married on the 20th June 1766


 

(1) my GGGG Grandfather baptised on the 27th June 1766 at George the Martyr in Exeter became a butcher and that his father was called George England.

I know what because in his will from 1837 it states his trade a butcher I show this as a comment.

(2) One of his 8 children is Richard Westaway England.

This is such an uncommon name I can only find one on the familysearch.org site.

(3) I also went to the library and found out that Richard Westaway England my GGG Grandfather was an organist . As he had a son called William who moved to London and lived at 11 John Street near Clerkenwell. When William gets married in 1853 he lists his father Richard Westaway England as an organist. I will see if I can get a hard copy later today of the bans, but if you have ancestry you can search for William England married 1853 and you will see his father’s name on the bands.

I got this from the bans of marriage of William England who married in 1853 and states his fathers profession as organist.

As I had been googling organists and the family name England I was aware that there are two organ makers called . “George England” “John England” who had premises near Clerkenwell.

So I looked at the various dates of the organs credited to “George England” and the first I could find was built in 1760.

So I wondered if the father of my ancestor also called “George England” was the organist “George England” as he would have been born about the right time.

I discovered is that nobody knows anything for sure about George England apart from some of the organs he built.

There is also confusion as to which ones he built alone or with “John England”

There are also different dates mentioned as to when he died or when he retired.

(4) The other thing I discovered was that the organist “George England” got married 7 days before my ancestor the butcher was baptised . My ancestor baptised 27th June 1766 . “George England “ organist married 20th June 1766

I wondered if that meant for sure there was no link with my family to him.

So I went back to the library and searched family trees and found 13 people who also claim to be desceded from the 1766 George England butcher and these trees say his parents were
Father George England – Mother various spellings (Dianna /Hannah/Anne) Beer

The trees on ancestry show these 6 children

Solomon England 27th July 1762 Shepton Beaumont
Samuel England 18th November 1764 Shepton Beaumont
Diane England 9th December 1765 Shepton Beaumont
George England 27th June 1766 St George the Martyr Exeter my ancestor became a butcher
James England 14st January 1767 Shepton Beauchamp
Giles England 21st February 1769 Shepton Beauchamp

(5) Amongst the six children above is my GGGG the butcher baptised 27th June 1766 whose son is the organist “Richard Westaway England” born 8th Febuary 1794

As you can see if these trees are true my ancestor is not the natural son of D/A Beer though he may be George England’s son. As you see he is baptised only 6 months after Diane England and 7 months before James England.

So seven days after “George England” the organist was married in London on the 20th June 1766 My ancestor “George England” born in 1735 adopted a son “George England” on the 27th June 1766 who became a butcher.

This George England born in 1766 had a son who went onto become an organist Richard Westaway England. One of Richard’s sons William lived near Clerkenwell and the premises of John England.

(6) As well as having a son who becomes an organist Richard Westaway had a son James , I have plugged in his birth date of 1803 with a two year error and only one James Listed appears who is a piano tuner

I know that I am saying if my ancestor born in Shepton Beaumont in 1735 was George England the organist he would also be a bigamist.

However if this is true a lot of other things make sense.

I realise this sounds unlikely but at the very least it is an incredible coincidence that he had a grandson Richard Westaway England who went onto become an organist and that this Richard Westaway England had a son who just happened to move to 11 John Street less than a quarter of a mile from 31 Theobald Street where John England and premises. One of Richard Westaway England's sons born in born 1803 is listed as a piano tuner in the 1841 census




Offline BelletTiverton

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 17
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: organ builders
« Reply #14 on: Monday 14 May 18 08:43 BST (UK) »

Page 5 of this mentions the organist Richard Westaway at an 1839 concert who lives in Tiverton it must be Richard Westaway England as he was the only organist called Richard England in Tiverton in 1839.http://www.bristol.ac.uk/music/CHOMBEC/chombec-news-8.pdf




Offline JustinL

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,804
    • View Profile
Re: organ builders
« Reply #15 on: Monday 14 May 18 18:14 BST (UK) »
This post caught my eye for the simple reason that my organ-builder ancestor was apprenticed to George Pyke England in 1800.

Over the years, I have tried to find out more about GPE, but have found little more than you, Peter. GPE and his wife, Ann born Wilson, had four daughters: Jane Anne who married William Nicholls, another organ builder, in 1812. Nicholls took over GPE's business after the latter's death. The other three, Louisa, Elizabeth and Marian, were under the age of 22 years and still single. There were also two sons, George John (b. 1795) and Charles (b. 1800), who were not mentioned in GPE's will of 1812.

I feel obliged to point to out that an organist and organ builder are not the same thing. The latter was a skilled craftsman who had to be able to work with leather for the bellows, various metals for the pipes, as well as wood. This does not, of course, rule out a connection between your family and that of the organ builders.

I'll be interested to read what else you find out.

Justin


Offline BelletTiverton

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 17
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: organ builders
« Reply #16 on: Monday 14 May 18 23:14 BST (UK) »
Hi Justin

Thanks for the information on the difference between organists and organ makers.

I know very little about pipe organs but quite a lot of people called England in the 1841 census had manual jobs.  The information below is a pivot table showing the occupations of the 97 people called England aged between 40 and 50 .

It is typical of the occupations of the day.

As you see the largest occupation is Agricultural Labourer though it is spelt in various way in the census returns.

Even though being an organist does not require the skill set of an organ maker

Being an organist makes it more likely your grandfather is an organ maker than  the typical occupation available at that time.

Occupations of 97 Men called England in the 1841 census
Typical of the range of occupations of the day

Ag Lab    20
Ag Labour    1
Ag Labourer    7
Ag. Lab.    2                                                 
Ag.Lab    1
Agricultural Labourer    6
Butcher    1
Carpenter    3
Clock Maker    1
Cloth Weaver    1
Cloth Worker    1
Coal Miner    2
Confectioner    1
Crofter    1
Customs    1
Farmer    4
Farrier    1
Gardener    2
Gardner    1
Grocer    1
Handle Felt    1
Hat Maker    1
Hatter    1
Independent    1
J    1
Journeyman Shoe Maker    1
Journeyman Tanner    1
Labourer    4
Lace Hand    1
Land Drainer    2
Linen Bleacher    1
Mason    1
Painter    1
Pianoforte Tuner    1
Porter    1
Professor Of Music    1
Railroad Excavator    1
Sawyer    2
Schoolmaster Master    1
Shoe M    1
Shoe Maker    1
Shubber    1
Smith    1
Spirit Dealer    1
Stone Mason    1
Surgeon    1
Tailor    1
uk   1
Wooln Manfr    1
Yeoman    2
(blank)   3
Grand Total   97

Offline JustinL

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,804
    • View Profile
Re: organ builders
« Reply #17 on: Tuesday 15 May 18 17:32 BST (UK) »
Hello Peter,

You have been very methodical in your analysis. However, what draws you to the conclusion that "Being an organist makes it more likely your grandfather is an organ maker than the typical occupation available at that time"?

Are you saying that the grandsons of organ builders were frequently organists? I'm afraid I did't see why there should be a correlation. Organ building was a craft to which a young lad was apprenticed for seven years, without necessarily having much choice in the matter. My organ builder ancestor was a parish orphaned son of a fruit seller who was taken on by GPE by shear coincidence. No other member of the family had any other connection with an organ.

Being an organist is certainly no mean feat, but surely has more to do with some sort of calling.

Anyway, I'm digressing.

GPE was a son of John and Jane and was baptised in St. James' Clerkenwell on 1 Oct 1767. His organ-building uncle George had married Sarah Bridge in the same church 10 years earlier.

Justin