Thirlwall family 1871

[RolfVictor]

Thirlwall 1871 census questions

I want to find records of Bernard Thirlwall, who I believe was born in Carmarthenshire, Wales, probably in 1863 and lived in Wales or England until 1876.

I believe Bernard’s father is John Thirlwall, born about 1830.

The 1861 census shows John Thirlwall, age 31,  and his wife Anne, age 34 and born in London, living in Abergwilli, Carmarthenshire, Wales with these children:
Sarey and Helen, age 8, John, age 7, Alice M., age 4, and Annie, age 1.  John Thirlwall (the head of the household) was secretary to Bishop Connop Thirlwall, who also lived in Abergwili. 

I know from newspaper reports that the Thirlwall family emigrated to Martin County, Minnesota, USA in 1876 and that the elder John Thirlwall died there in 1877.

The US 1880 census report for Fraser Township, Martin County, Minnesota lists these Thirlwalls:

Christina Thirlwall,  age 37, born in England and head of the household
John Thirlwall, age 26 born in Wales -- listed as Christina’s son,
Mand Thirlwall,  age 23,born in England -- listed as her daughter,
Anna Thirlwall , age 21, born in England --  listed as her daughter,
Herbert Thirlwall, age 12, born in England -- listed as Christina’s son
A.G. Shan Thirlwall, age 11, born in England -- listed as Christina’s son

I assume that John, Mand, and Anna are the children John and Anne Thirlwall listed as John, Alice M., and Annie on the 1861 Wales census report.  In any event, it is improbable that Christina is their mother.

I know from Martin County probate court records that Christina Thirlwall petitioned to have Bernard Thirlwall, age 16, committed to an institution in 1879.  I know from institution records that Bernard lived in an institution in Faribault, Minnesota until he died in 1882.  He is listed there in the 1880 US census report.

Christina Thirlwall is not listed with the other Thirlwalls in Martin County, Minnesota in the 1885 census.  I have found one reference in institution records to a letter sent to her in Windsor, Nova Scotia in October 1880.

According to a biographical sketch by John Morgan published in 1892, Bishop Connop Thirlwall left Abergwili  in 1874 and moved to Bath where he died in 1875, cared for by his loving nephew, John Thirlwall.

I have newspaper records from Martin County, Minnesota which state that the widow of John Thirlwall returned to England at an unspecified date and was there in 1904.

My working assumption is that Christina Thirlwall is the elder John Thirlwall’s second wife, who may or may not be Bernard Thirlwall’s mother.

I have been unable to find any record of this Thirlwall family in the 1871 census for England or Wales or Canada.

My questions: 

Who is Bernard Thirlwall’s mother -- Anne Thirlwall born in London in 1828 or Christina Thirlwall born in England in 1843?

If the former, when and where did that Anne Thirlwall die?

If the latter, what was Christina’s birth name, where was she born, and when did she marry John Thirlwall?

Where did Bernard Thirlwall and his family live at the time of the 1871 census?

Where did Bernard Thirlwall and his family live prior to coming to the USA in 1876?

Where did Christina Thirlwall live in Canada or England after 1880?

Thank you for any information that you can provide.

[nickgc]

Hi - Are you aware of the PDF from the Minnesota Historical Society on The English Colony at Fairmont?  It only has a single mention of the John Thirwall family in a footnote, but could be of general interest.

mod'd:  Actually more than one ref, but sometimes spelled "Thirwell".  Suggests elder John returned to UK.

Nick

[RolfVictor]

I know of the article, but the comment in a footnote about him returning to England is inconsistent with his obituary in the Martin County newspaper which states that John Thirlwall, age 48, died in Fraser Township, Martin County on December 22, 1877.

Thank you for responding.

[keyboard86]

Hi is this the family you are searching for on the 1871:-

1871 Census

John Thirwall Head 41 occ Barrister at Law b Quebec British Subject
Ann Wife 43 b Middlesex
Darcy Daugh 18 b Carmarthenshire
Ellen Daugh 18              "
John Son 17                 "
Anne Daugh 10             "
Bernard Son 7               "
Herbert C Son 4 b Oxfordshire
Alban G S Son 2 b Oxfordshire

Plus Servants
Residing at Bevington Road Hawthornden St Giles Oxford

Census Ref RG10/1436/96/40

Keyboard86

[RolfVictor]

Thanks much for this information.

It would seem that Ann Thirlwall, Bernard's mother, must have died and John Thirlwall married Christina.  Any way to confirm this?

[keyboard86]

Hi I searched for a death/remarriage in the UK, and could not find one/or either, it is your next puzzle I think!

Keyboard86u

[z]

Hi

Had a look at some of the information that you posted and looked into the death of Anne, Johns first wife and found a listing for this: - Anne D'arcy Thirlwall - Est birth yr 1827 - Qtr Oct Nov Dec - Yr of Reg 1871 - District Headington - County Buckinghamshire Oxfordshire - Vol 3a - Pg 414. This would seem to tie in with the 1871 census information listing them as living in the area at this time. I then decided to take a look at the 1861 census as the name Sarey I think could be a mistranscription and that it could be Darcy. Which would then  make Annes initial "D",  thus reading Anne D Thirlwall. Using this name I then went onto look for a marriage for an Anne D'arcy ..........? Now this is the mystery as I did find that in 1851 in Carmarthenshire there was a marriage for an Anne D'arcy Wilson but not to a John Thirwall, there are eight individuals listed on this page, so not quite sure who she married and there doesn't appear to be enough men to women on the page, if that makes sense, so take a look and see what you think. However what I did find most interesting was that I then went onto search for Anne D'arcy Wilson in the census and found this:-

1851 H0107/2472/286/6 Civil Parish Llandefeilog County Carmarthen
John Wilson Head Mar b 1786 Hockton on Durham Judge of County Courts Barrister
Ann " wife b 1796 Walthamston Essex Barristers wife
Anne Day Wilson (think this could be D'arcy) b 1828 Bloomsbury Middlesex Barristers daug
Owen Sanders Wilson b 1832 Highgate Middlesex Barristers son

Therefore, I note with interest that this Anne was the daughter of a barrister, and that both "Sarey" and Helen were born in Llandefeilog which is where this Anne is living in 1851 and that the probability of Anne remaining an marrying in the area would be reasonably high, so could this be your Anne Thirlwall who died in 1871? If so, could offer a timeframe for the search of a marriage between John and Christina.

Could be something and nothing, but thought I would post what I had found.

Regards

Z

[RolfVictor]

Z

Thanks for looking into this.  Now, please help a novice.   Does  your statement "Anne D'arcy Thirlwall - Est birth yr 1827 - Qtr Oct Nov Dec - Yr of Reg 1871 - District Headington - County Buckinghamshire Oxfordshire - Vol 3a - Pg 414." mean that this Anne died in the last quarter of 1871 in Buckinghamshire Oxfordshire?  And what is "Vol 3a"?

Thanks again.

[nickgc]

Who is Bernard Thirlwall’s mother -- Anne Thirlwall born in London in 1828 or Christina Thirlwall born in England in 1843?

At this point, your best bet might be to order a birth certificate of one of these children.  It will give you the mother's name.  I suggest that you order the cert for the youngest child identifiable, probably Herbert who appears to have been born in Oxford in 1866.

Also consider that John might have married Christina in North America.  The previous reference I provided states, "John Thirlwall's American wife...", or words to that effect.

Z's ref is to the volume and page number given for Anne's death (for example on FreeBMD site) and is required for ordering birth, marriage, and death certificates from the UK GRO.

Nick