Thirlwall family 1871

[z]

Hi RolfVictor
 
The marriage of John Thirlwall appears to  have been incorrectly indexed and therefore he should appear on the same page as .................... Anne D'arcy Wilson - Yr of Reg: 1851- Qtr: Oct Nov Dec - District: Carmarthen - County: Carmarthenshire -  Vol 26 - Pg 809.  This looks to be a good marriage possibilty, however, to be completely sure might I suggest you consider ordering a copy of this marrriage certificate as it will confirm that you have the correct couple and also provide you with details such as where their marriage took place, where the bride and groom were living at the time, their fathers names plus their occupations and sometimes the witness information can be prove to be invaluable too.

Regards

Z

[RolfVictor]

Thanks Z.

In searching the marriage index I found John Thirlwall listed in Bristol, Avon, Glouchestershire vol 6a for October-December 1875.  That may be the John Thirlwall I am interested in, because his uncle, the Bishop Connop Thirlwall, moved to Bath after he retired.  Apparently John took care of him there in his final year.

(Although it is not of particular interest to me, I also found a reference to the marriage of D’Arcy Thirlwall, probably John's eldest daughter, in Bath in 1874.)

And I found a record of the christening of Christina Felicia Thirlwall on January 20, 1874 in Abergwili, Carmarthen with John Thirlwall as father and Christina (no last name) as mother.

This is interesting because the Canadian 1881 census shows a Christina Thirlwall age 7 born in England living with William Wilson, a professor of classics, in Windsor, Hants, Nova Scotia along with three other children named Thirlwall.  I also know that the Superintendent of the instiutiton in Minnesota where Bernard (John's son and, likely, Christina's stepson) was sent mailed a letter to "Mrs. Thirlwall" in October 1880 addressed to Windsor, Hants, Nova Scotia.

Which brings me to some follow-up questions.

If I want copies of the marriage certficate or birth certificate, how do I do that?

The other three children named Thirlwall living in Nova Scotia in 1881 were all born in England.  I have found no birth records for Violet (born in 1869), Max (born in 1875), and Beatrice (born in 1876).  Is there some place to check other than the England and Wales Birth Index? 

Finally, I know that John Thirlwall and three of his sons came to the United States in May 1876, but Christina and the other children were not on that ship (The Queen).  I have found no record of her and the other children on any passenger list.  She might have gone to Halifax, but I have no record of that.  Any suggestions about finding out when and where she and the rest of the family emigrated and whether she left the child Christina in NOva Scotia would be appreciated.

Thanks again.

RolfVictor

[z]

Hi RolfVictor

I am a little confused - are you saying that the marriage that you have found for John Thirlwall in Bristol in 1875 is his second marriage?

Also, apologies if you have this already but I noted that in the 1851 census there is reference to a Thomas James Thirlwall (Nephew) b 1828 Quebec British Subject Canada living with Connop Thirlwall in the Parish of Abergwili.

These births look good:- Violet Mary Thirlwall Sept 1871 Headingtion, Buckinghamshire, Oxfordshire Vol 3a Pg 611 - Beatrice Katharine C Thirlwall Sept 1876 Bath, Avon, Somerset Vol 5c Pg 585 - Max Alexander C Thirlwall Mar 1875 Bath, Avon, Somerset Vol 5c Pg 650.

You can order a copy of a birth, marriage or death certificate online at www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates or alternatively from the appropriate local register office.

Might I suggest that you consider searching for wills, as they too can be full of information.

Regards

Z

[RolfVictor]

Thanks Z. 
I could not find those birth record references.  I did not find one for Bernard Thirlwall (my primary interest here) either.  The 1871 census says he was born in 1863 in Llandefeilog.  If you could find the record reference, I would appreciate it very much.

According to information in previous posts,  John and Anne Thirlwall were probably married in 1851 and had lots of children before she died in 1871. John's wife in America was Christine.  My guess is that the 1875 marriage certificate will show that.  It seems possible that John and Christina had three children before they came to Minnesota.  If those children are the ones in Nova Scotia, there must have been some reason they went there and not to the English settlement in Martin County, Minnesota. 

Thanks again for your help.  I will likely order the 1875 marriage certificate and a couple of the birth certificates.

RolfVictor

[z]

Hi RolfVictor

The marriage that you have found for John Thirlwall in 1875 is to a Mary Pope, and therefore I think incorrect. However, I have found another marriage that looks to be a good possibility John Thirlwall and a Christine Wilson 1873 - Jan Feb March -  Warrington -  County: Cheshire Lancashire -  Vol 8c Pg 151. I noted with interest that in 1909 Beatrice K C Thirlwall b 1877 Bath travelled to Boston and that her last address given was of a Mrs Kirkman The Grange Timperley Altrincham and who should be living at The Grange in the 1891 census but a Mrs Christina Kirkman b 1841 Bootle Nr Liverpool Lancashire with her solicitor husband William W Kirkman b 1843 Lancashire Croft Nr Warrington. William W Kirkman and Christina Thirlwall appear to have married in Bath in Sept 1890  Vol 5c Pg 962. William Wright  Kirkman I then went onto discover was the lawful attorney of Christina Thirlwall (widow) and listed in brief in the Probate Calendar where you will find a John Thirlwall who died 22 Dec 1877, probate was granted 21 May 1878, you may want to consider ordering his will as it could well make for a very interesting read.
So could this be your Christina who came from Lancashire and married John Thirlwall in 1873? Could also explain the Christina Felicia in the Canadian 1881 census living with a William "Wilson" although I believe I have found her in the 1891 census in a ladies college in Cheltenham.
Unfortunately, I cannot find any birth reference at present to that of Bernard Thirlwall.

Regards

Z

[welsh lady]

Z has found the correct 2nd marriage full details below

4th Feb 1873 Christ Church Croft,Lancashire
John Thirlwall ,Full age,Barrister Register of St Davids,Widower of Abergwili
Father-John Thirlwall,Deceased,occ-Merchant
Christine Wilson,Full age,Gentlewoman Spinster of Croft
Father-Robert Wilson,Deceased,occ-Clerk
Witnesses-W Kirkham,Margaret Wilson

Welsh Lady

[welsh lady]

Also found this on an online site of ex pupils of Rugby School

Entrances in 1840-1850
John Thirlwall second son of John Pyefinch Thirlwall esq,aged 13,Dec 5th
 Price,Exeter College Oxford 1848
Barrister at Law Inner Temple 1853
Formerly Secretary to his uncle Bishop Thirlwall of St Davids

Welsh Lady

[RolfVictor]

Z and Welsh Lady,

Thanks to both of you for this information.  Much appreciated.

RolfVictor

[justinamt]

Hi there,

I am interested in the topic but couldn't precisely help you on the specific issue, i am going on about it from the other end. The start of Thirlwell, Thirlwall and Thirwall from pre1300s when our ancestor (one family) claimed ownership of the town Thirlwall where our surname came from... Funny enough is a long tradition of Military background (especialy Navy) family hence there is a bit of thirlwall, thirlwell, thirwall in GB and its colonies. Please contact me hopefully through team work we can sort this (thousands) puzzle together
Justin Allenby Michael Thirlwell