Help with the Sewell family

[Betty.W]

Does anyone know who the parents of Rose Murray nee Thomas and John R Murray were?

[Socialite2018]

Hi

I am researching Frederick W Clare on behalf of Christine Edith Cooke.  I did some further research and found the following information, which may or may not help me/you:

Name:   Frederick William Clare
Baptism Age:   0
Record Type:   Baptism
Birth Date:   20 May 1909 (Matches date on 1939 register)
Baptism Date:   13 Jun 1909
Baptism Place:   St John, Clerkenwell, Islington, England
Father:   Frederick William Clare
Mother:   Annie Clare (I cannot find a marriage)
==================
Name:   Frederick William Clare
Death Age:   88
Birth Date:   20 May 1909
Registration Date:   Apr 1998

======================
Name:   Grace Florence Swinchatt
Baptism Age:   0
Record Type:   Baptism
Birth Date:   26 Oct 1913
Baptism Date:   23 Nov 1913
Baptism Place:   St John, Hackney, Hackney, England
Father:      Walter Swinchatt
Mother:   Grace Elizabeth Swinchatt, nee Frost

Name:   Grace F Swinchatt
Date of Registration:   Jul-Aug-Sep 1934
Spouse:   Frederick W Clare (dob 20 May 1909)

Certificate shows:  Frederick was 25 and a bachelor;  occupation:  motor driver:  residence: 13 Provence Street, Islington.  Father:  Frederick Clare, railway porter.  Witnesses:  W Swinchatt;  F C Bradbrook. Date:  9th September 1934.

First name(s)   Grace Florence
Last name   Clare
Gender   Female
Birth day   26
Birth month   10
Birth year   1913
Age   -
Death quarter   4
Death year   1986

================
Children:

Two daughters.  One born 1937, the other born 1940.  The latter married in 1962.  We have DNA match, 2nd to 4th cousins but I don't fully understand the results. 

==================

1939
Frederick William (b 20 May 1909) and Grace (b 26 Oct 1913)  registered at 20 Danbury Street, Islington with their daughter. Frederick was working as a motor driver, heavy work.

1948
Frederick William and Grace C Clare living  at 46 Noel Road, Islington.  Also in the house Ellen Bruce, Mary Bruce, Thomas Bruce, John Murray, Rose Murray.

1965
Frederick William and Grace C Clare living at 20 The Close, Iver, Buckinghamshire. 
===============
Frederick William Clare Snr
b 16 Oct 1883

1939
Frederick William Clare b 16 Oct 1883, Railway Porter & Trained On Signalman.  Living with him Mildred Reta Price Clare b 04 Dec 1916.

Name:   Mildred R P Harwood
Date of Registration:   Apr-May-Jun 1938
Spouse:   Frederick W Clare
==============

Death notice:

CLARE, MILDRED RETA PRICE, Widow of the late Frederick William and Mother of four children, two sons/two daughters.  One son predeceased his mother.  Mildred died on New Years Day 2012 aged 95 years

==============
To summarise, maybe Annie Sewell was Frederick William Clare's mother with or without parents' marriage! 

I look forward to learning more.  We have had DNA test and it shows a match with Frederick William and Grace Florence Clare's youngest daughter.  Our ancestry comes from Matilda Clare daughter of Francis and Caroline Clare nee Ward.

[dawnsh]

Hi Socialite2018

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[Lynne Murray]

Hello out there,

We are definately researching the same Frederick William Clare - Grace Swinchatt.
I stronglybelieve as you have seen that Frederick William Clare was originally brought up as Frederick William Murray.  Family (his brother) Thomas William Murray told me and of course my father (Allan Thomas Murray) that the family had a big fight and he didnt say why.  Only that Fred Changed his surname to clare and Catherine and Fred no longer spoke with family.

Fred has signed "Their" mothers death certificate and arranged the funeral as Tom was at war at the time.
I have those originals.
I hold the birth certificate of Thomas Murray Senior (Who is father of Thomas William and step father or father? of Frederick clare)  There is also a sister  Catherine Murray that Grandad said that also stopped speaking to family.   Annie (fred's Mother) died in 1943 I have original docs on this too.  Catherine Married a Brichard.

I have lots of notes tracking Fred down ... He worked for the railway at Euston Station as a young boy.   Yes I have seen the birth/Baptism of Frederick Clare - Father Frederick and Monther Annie Clare.   It is in amongst my research papers.   Id love to talk more.  Lynne Murray (thomas Murrays Grandaughter/Fred's Great Niece.
Do you have any photos?

[Betty.W]

Hi Lynne,Unless some sort of proof comes to light I don't think that Frederick William Clare was the son of Annie Murray nee Sewell. Annie married Thomas on June 13th 1897. Katherine was born in 1900. According to the 1911 census Annie was staying with her mother, she had no children with her. Thomas was with his parents and had Katherine with him (aged 11).  If Frederick were Annie's son - where was he? he would have been only two years old.On the Murray census it is stated that Thomas was married and had two children but only one still living and one had died.
As we know Frederick did register Annie's death and said that he was her son, but, if this was the case how come he didn't know that her deceased husband's name was Thomas or what his occupation was. I think that he may have just said that he was her son. There was  John and Rose Murray living in the same house as him, maybe they were related to Annie, I would like to find out who their parents were.( Just because William's mothers name was Annie doesn't mean it was Annie Murray. Annie Murray was my grandmothers sister and I grew-up knowing that she died in a mental hospital where had been admitted after her husband died in about 1912. (The story went that she was so heartbroken that she lost her mind) I think that I might have heard if she had had a child with someone else whilst married to Thomas !! just doesn't make sense.

[Socialite2018]

Oh this is all so interesting and thank you for your speedy response.  I have spent hours trying to trace the birth of Frederick William Clare (b 20 May 1909). This is the key I think. I have the wedding certificate and it says on there that his father's name was Frederick Clare (railway porter).  The latter was born 16 Oct 1883 and married twice.  There is a mystery witness at the Clare/Swinchatt wedding, ie F C Bradbrook.  Any idea who s/he is?  Frederick's daughter and my client have the DNA match.  From this tree it has to be a Clare family match so I think Frederick Clare was Frederick William's father.  There is also another Clare match with another Clare cousin, male, who is descended via Caroline Clare,  daughter of Francis and Caroline Clare nee Ward.

Any chance you can do a DNA? 

Can you send me a personal message please?  I am not allowed to message you until I have posted three responses.
Rhiannon

[Socialite2018]

Hi Lynne

I am new to this site but not family history research so keep losing the posts and am not sure to whom I am replying!

I do agree that we need Frederick William Murray or Frederick William Clare or Frederick William Sewell's birth certificate.

Frederick William Clare's daughter has taken a DNA but she does not reply to my messages on another site.  I will try again and ask her what she knows but am not holding my breath!
Rhiannon

[Socialite2018]

Hi all

I now have details of the death of Frederick William Clare which confirms (1) dob 20 May 1909, and gives place of birth as Holborn.  He died Basingstoke, 1998.  Occupation: retired taxi driver.  I have found a birth registration for a Frederick Clare in Holborn but July/Aug/Sept quarter.  I have ordered this to see if, for whatever reason, he was registered late rather than, as I thought, maybe not at all.  I will keep you posted.

[Lynne Murray]

Hello Ladies,

Please dont forget that I have the same frustration as you both.

I cannot 'ignore' the fact that my Grandfather and Father repeated the family story over and over that Frederick was 'Thomas Williams' brother, son of Annie but due to a family dispute Frederick changed his name to clare.

Now it is possible that Frederick was of another father... and IT ALL CAME OUT prior to his marriage and therefore he changed his name "back to his real fathers name".

I still think we are all connected just cannot for the life of me work it out.
In answer to your question Betty.. I would put money on the fact that FREDERICK DID know the husbands name and occupation but refused to acknowledge it.   WILL WE EVER KNOW!