Author Topic: Frustration re: Merchant Navy  (Read 8060 times)

Offline loo

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Re: Frustration re: Merchant Navy
« Reply #27 on: Friday 16 December 05 22:49 GMT (UK) »
Congratulations!

I'll give it a try.  My understanding is that the records of all merchant mariners who sailed is kept by the country where the boat was registered, not their country of residence or origin - if the records still exist, which in many cases they do not.
ARMSTRONG - Castleton Scot; NB; Westminstr Twp
BARFIELD - Nailsea
BRAKE - Nailsea
BURIATTE
CANDY - M'sex, Deptford
CLIFFORD - Maidstone
DURE(E) - France, Devon, Canada
HALLS - Chigwell
KREIN, Peter/Adam - Germany
LEOPOLD - Hanover, London
LATTIMER, MAXWELL - Ldn lightermen
MEYER - Lauenstein
MURRAY - Scot borders
STEWART - Chelsea; Reach
SWANICK - Mayo & Roscommon; Ontario
WEST - Rochester & Maidstone
WILLIS - Wilts, Berks, Hants, London
WOODHOUSE - Bristol tobacconist, London
WW1 internees

Offline Candolim_Imp

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Re: Frustration re: Merchant Navy
« Reply #28 on: Saturday 17 December 05 00:48 GMT (UK) »
These are the discharge papers 1913-1972 I've been looking at. There are also ships' manifests etc, and presumably these would have crew lists, but of course you'd need to know the ship, as the national archives site don't appear to list the crew names in their index.

Interestingly, my partner's discharge papers are also in the index, though he was discharged after 1972... so I'm a bit confused about what event has to fall into the 1913-1972 period to qualify for inclusion.

I believe some of the discharge papers are missing from around WW1.

I bought a digital copy of Maurice's papers today.... was a little strange for Mike to see the photo of his dad taken so many years after he last saw him... though I could definitely see a family resemblance.

On the papers they gice a different birthdate to his index date, 26th Nov 1932, which fits closer to Mike's Mum's memory of the date (she was one day out).

To be hoonest, these discharge papers don't hold a great deal of unknown data... just name, birthdate & place, address, next of kin, national insurance number and a photo... but if searching for an older record, this information could be much more useful, particularly address, which could lead to further info from the census... not to mention a photo which would be great if it was someone who was around before living memory. I'm not sure when they started to include photos, but I know my gg grandfather's UK residency permit included one int he late 19thC (he was a Danish sailor who settled here but retained his Danish nationality)... so it's possible they were attaching photos to Merchant sailors' papers quite early on.

I think we may be leaving it a little late to order a birth certificate by post from Barbados now, but with it being a small island, processing may by quite quick, so I think we may just wait til we get there and order it int he first day or 2, I think they may be able to process the same day with his exact birthdate and full name. That way we could have time to buy the parents' marriage certificate, too... which could give us the names of the previous generation and hopefully then we'll be able to find them in IGI, which is fairly complete for Barbados, but doesn't cover the period of Branforde's birth... it should contain Branforde's parents, though.

We also have other West Indian sailors in Mike's line, inparticular his great grandmother, Catherine Lyon's, father, Charles Frederick, born about 1825. He and Margaret Lyon didn't marry, but family stories tell of Nin, an Irish "grandmother", who we think was Charles Frederick's wife, Ann, born in Ireland. The Frederick family lived a few houses down from his illegitimate daughter, Catherine Lyon and her mother, Margaret, and stepfather, John Murray, a Barbadian sailor born about 1845. I can only find these men in the 1881 census... they may not have arrived before then. According to Margaret Murray/Lyon's marital status in 1891, John was still alive then, but clearly on board ship... she seems to be a widow after that. I can find no definite record of Charles Frederick... so I can't say with certainty which Caribbean island he came from, but Barbados had the largest number of immigrant sailors in the UK of all the islands... so I believe they were likely Barbadian.

Lastly, there's Thomas King, who Catherine Lyon bigamously married in 1914 after her husband, Robert Henry Colebourn "did a bunk" for a few years. Thomas was West Indian, born about 1875....  again, very likely Barbadian.

I would love to piece together more info about all of them, but of course Thomas King & John Murray aren't blood relatives... and with little time (and lots of Caribbean sun to absorb), there's a limit to how much I could hope to achieve in Barbados, especially having so little information on the earlier men.

Impy
Hodge; Southport, Lancs
Pugh; Salop, Liverpool
Hulm; Bootle, Southport
Guildford; Liverpool
Clausen; Denmark, Liverpool
Yapp/Yopp; Salop
Marshall, Rimmer, Howard, Johnson, Jackson; Southport
Bury; Heref, Herts
Dady; Norfolk, Southport
Colebourne; Liverpool
Small; Barbados, Liverpool
Murray; West Indies, Liverpool
Williams; Africa, Liverpool
Jenner; Glos

Offline goggy

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Re: Frustration re: Merchant Navy
« Reply #29 on: Saturday 17 December 05 02:40 GMT (UK) »
Impy,seem's that you have a few lead's to work with,quite a web of useless+frustrating info!
However,having gone thru' a similar process I have found that your own locality may have some information lying about waiting for you to find it.
My background,childhood is all 'Scouse,Merchant Navy service included.During my time there there were enclave's of a dozen nationalitie's in different area's.Liverpool 8 was then where those of African descent  were mostly to be found,as was Cornhill,a M.N signing on or,registry/employment office.I guess that doesn't exist now?
Mike call's you his Posh Totty,I think you are more of a real smart Judy!Not a derogatory title,but stemming from the fact that St Jude is the Patron Saint of Liverpool,hence more attention should be paid to the Beatle's "Hey Jude",to whom one pray's for lost causes and the 'Pool has seen a few.
Not very informative I know,just intended as 'heart balm',dont give up,enjoy your trip,and take a walk along the Sugar Wharf,ask about the people (hundred's) tyhat loaded Banana's,stalk by stalk carried on thier head's,you will lerna bit about Fore bears that isnt put into history book's.
Sorry to babble on,hope you feel a bit better!!
              Regard's,Goggy. ;)

Offline loo

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Re: Frustration re: Merchant Navy
« Reply #30 on: Saturday 17 December 05 08:26 GMT (UK) »
It sounds like a book in the making to me!

I saw something on TV not too long ago where someone had searched her slave ancestors right back to the beginning through some archives in Washington DC.;  it was fascinating.  I don't suppose that would apply to you, but you never know what they might have, if you're really determined to scour every possibility.

(Couldn't find my fella, but thanks for the code number.)
ARMSTRONG - Castleton Scot; NB; Westminstr Twp
BARFIELD - Nailsea
BRAKE - Nailsea
BURIATTE
CANDY - M'sex, Deptford
CLIFFORD - Maidstone
DURE(E) - France, Devon, Canada
HALLS - Chigwell
KREIN, Peter/Adam - Germany
LEOPOLD - Hanover, London
LATTIMER, MAXWELL - Ldn lightermen
MEYER - Lauenstein
MURRAY - Scot borders
STEWART - Chelsea; Reach
SWANICK - Mayo & Roscommon; Ontario
WEST - Rochester & Maidstone
WILLIS - Wilts, Berks, Hants, London
WOODHOUSE - Bristol tobacconist, London
WW1 internees


Offline Jacamar

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!!
« Reply #31 on: Saturday 07 January 06 12:15 GMT (UK) »
Candleimp....

I was directed here as I am trying to trace my husbands Caribbean roots - and this is a fascinating thread. You seem to have done so well... I have even less info to go on but you are giving lots of clues here.

My guy was born in Trinidad but never knew his father and until very recently was adamant he didn't want to. His father is also Bajan and came from the St Michaels district. All we know is that his father was called Goldburn Blades and had a nickname of "Boogles" which is after the WI cricketer Morris. We even had a possible address for his current family which was St Michael Trace - though that info was a good 20 years old.

Although I was working in TnT for nearly 3 years we didn;t go across to Barbados (as he didn't want to go) but then we were stuck there for 7 hours on a transfer flight so we did start to look but it was completely impossible without prior knowledge. ("NOW you want to look!" I grumbled to him at the time hehe)

His own surname is White from his mother (parents were not married) and even that is "invented" as his grandfather changed it to that from Ramjani - that line originally coming from Madras India.

Other than that I have nothing which I was looking for something online to start a general search. Other than that, we will have to wait until we go over to TnT middle of next year, get more info and pop over to Barbados. Now that he WANTS to look, we may get somewhere.

Other than that I do know Blades is a very common name in Barbados especially around the St Michael area so any clues as to how to research that would be welcome.

On another note,... I noticed you were talking about a swap shop... well, I live in Norfolk ... what areas in Norfolk did you want looking at?

Lynn

Offline Candolim_Imp

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Re: Frustration re: Merchant Navy
« Reply #32 on: Sunday 08 January 06 11:47 GMT (UK) »
Hi Jacamar,

Thanks to the kind folk who have contributed, this thread has become quite an interesting discussion about the resources and options available to Caribbean searches... and I'm really pleased if it's given others a few pointers.... though we are still quite stuck with this branch.

With this line, we really had to start at the beginning, getting my partner's parents' marriage certificate to confirm name spellings and Branforde's full name (interestingly, his full name, Branforde Rollins Small is made up of 3 common surnames in Barbados, so I guess that we could be looking at the surnames of 3 of his nearest relatives). I had always planned to get Maurice's birth certificate before we visited, but with having to write or phone to order it, I never got round to it... I'm hoping that with Barbados being relatively small, they may be able to process certificate ordering on a same-day service, or at least quite quickly, so we could get the certificate there and have time to follow up on the information we find in it.

It continuallly strikes me as strange that in all these years of posting requests for information.... no-one has ever come forward with the information about where the Small family originated. I'd have thought that anyone in or from Barbados with this name would know the plantation of their origin... but either it's been lost in the midsts of time, or Barbadian folk are far too busy enjoying the Caribbean sunshine to bother with the internet!

If you haven't already checked, the Ellis Island website is useful if you think your relative sailed into New York at any time in the late 19thC/Early 20thC. This data includes age, occupation, the name & address of their nearest relative in their home country and their final destination....Though it can be a trawl through the info, you can also find descriptions of their physical appearance on the additional pages. (unfortunately, I can't find any Barbadian relatives amongst them, but have found a few of my own relatives who emigrated, including one who arrived on the Mauretania in 1910).

Regarding the Norfolk info... the most pressing search has been resolved... I bought a copy of the register I needed, as it proved MUCH cheaper than a trip to Norwich (luckily Thelton is a tiny parish and fits on one film).... I confirmed the marriage I'd found on IGI and added 4 more children to the family... I also probably found the wife's parents and siblings (though her baptism wasn't there, but there was only the one couple of the name around her birth, and we know she was born there, plus she had the same witnesses at her marriage as the other Rudd folk had at theirs). The husband, Samuel Dady, wasn't born there, but the film also includes a couple of other, even smaller, parishes, hopefully local to Thelton... so maybe I'll hit really lucky and find my missing relative in one of those. Many thanks anyway.

I wish you luck with your Barbadian research, and I hope you'll keep us posted of any progress... which will add to the usefulness of this thread.

Impy

Hodge; Southport, Lancs
Pugh; Salop, Liverpool
Hulm; Bootle, Southport
Guildford; Liverpool
Clausen; Denmark, Liverpool
Yapp/Yopp; Salop
Marshall, Rimmer, Howard, Johnson, Jackson; Southport
Bury; Heref, Herts
Dady; Norfolk, Southport
Colebourne; Liverpool
Small; Barbados, Liverpool
Murray; West Indies, Liverpool
Williams; Africa, Liverpool
Jenner; Glos

Offline Jacamar

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Re: Frustration re: Merchant Navy
« Reply #33 on: Tuesday 10 January 06 08:29 GMT (UK) »
Thanks for that, Impy!

You struck a chord with saying that no-one had come forward with the names of plantations etc. This is pure Caribbean for you. I was grumbling about similar things to my husband the other day - he can accurately remember a distant cousin's nephew's girlfriend's step-mother within seconds, but has shown co curiosity about his past family at all. "Ahhhh" he said" I know people who are LIVIN' - not dead!"

And I think this is the crux of the matter. People I met in the Caribbean like to know each others racial origins but thats as far as it extends. Many do not actually want to know the past. Indeed many families have re-invented themselves since arriving in the Caribbean. Foe example, when slavery was abolished, workers were needed in the cane fields and after casting around for a solution to this problem, indentured "East Indians" were brought over from Madras and Calcutta in two waves. They were indentured for 5 years after which many returned to India.

To prevent this drain back out of Trinidad, they were offered land to stay, and thus began the basis for the strong business class there. The families were often from very pooor origins in India but reinvented themselves with new names like "Maharajah". Culturally, it would not really be their own interests to dig too deep!

Also, and you may have difficulty believing this, many people do not actually KNOW their origins. It depends on their upbringing and education. Many schools teach American history and have no idea of the  Colonial past. The house I shared with others working in my company had a housekeeper of East Indian background, and she had absolutely no idea how her ancestors had got to Trinidad. She knew nothing of slavery etc  Generally there is not the interest in genealogy that there is here. Its impossible ot trace anyway - seeing as it is not that uncommon for some men to maintain 2 or 3 seperate families at the same time and generally it is a martiarchal society, so not so much importance is given to marriages and the patenal line,  Th eonly thing you can be sure of is the maternal line which works on opposition to the UK way of recording information.

As for you hoping to process your certificate on a same day service - I am sorry but that really cracked me up! For a start, the Caribbean has more public holidays than anywhere else in the world, so you are likely to find yourself affected by one in your stay. Secondly, as they say themselves.."Dere are two speeds hyah... slow an' dead slow!" They will not process this fast for you if you turn up cold. What you need to do is establish contact by email first to the correct place and fidnd the right person to talk to  - then they couldn;t be more helpful! The Caribbean is a who you know place - they are NOT natural beaurocrats!!

Lynn

Offline Candolim_Imp

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Re: Frustration re: Merchant Navy
« Reply #34 on: Saturday 18 February 06 14:52 GMT (UK) »
Well, returned home about 8.30 am this morning... not slept yet, but had to post an update:

The first working day after we arrived, we went to the registration people to order Maurice's birth certificate.... to be honest, it's not too bad... it takes 3 working days to process, but there was a chap ahead of us in the queue who was going home the following day and they went and got it for him there & then (leaving the desk unstaffed for 15 minutes to do so!).. anyway, back to the story.... we were told that we needed his mother's name to get the certificate, and that we were unlikley to find it with just his father... but as it cost 1 bajan dollar (about 33p), we put it in anyway and were told to return for it on the Thursday.

In the meantime, we were advised to put an ad in the paper to see if we could find any living relatives or friends with information, so before we went back to the resgistration offices, we paid a visit to The Nation office. They suggested an ad in the Sunday edition (known as the Sunday Sun) as the circulation is highest for this... so we spent about £60 on an ad on page 4 asking for anyone who knew Maurice Woodsley Small of St Michaels, born 1932, who joined the Harrison Line and settled in Liverpool...son of Brandforde Rollins Small.

We then went to the refistration office and hit the jackpot! They had found the certificate, but his father wasn't named... he was listed as son of Enid Small. This indicated that his father must've been Brandforde Rollins, and Maurice had tagged "Small" on the end to make his birth look more acceptable to English standards (as opposed to Bajan ones, where illegitimacy is the norm). We now didn't know whether he was known as Small or Rollins in his youth (it was possible that, as his mother had died, he may have been known as Rollins and only taken the name Small when required to enlist as a seaman with his birth certificate).

We were aware that the paper ad was now out of date, but we hoped that someone would read between the lines and recognise the likely mistake.

I got up about 7am on Sunday to get a copy of the paper, and by 8am the first phone call came... from a guy called Clyde who had been at sea with Maurice. Before we could return his call, more came through... one from another shipmate, Kammy, and one from a woman who knew Maurice's cousins, providing us with their names and phone numbers. We arranged to meet Kammy on the beach, where they play cricket on Sunday, but he got waylayed, so instead we discovered that one of the cricketers was Mike's uncle, Alphin, who had married Maurice's sister... so now we had a name for Mike's aunt, Leila Small.

.................continued on next message

Hodge; Southport, Lancs
Pugh; Salop, Liverpool
Hulm; Bootle, Southport
Guildford; Liverpool
Clausen; Denmark, Liverpool
Yapp/Yopp; Salop
Marshall, Rimmer, Howard, Johnson, Jackson; Southport
Bury; Heref, Herts
Dady; Norfolk, Southport
Colebourne; Liverpool
Small; Barbados, Liverpool
Murray; West Indies, Liverpool
Williams; Africa, Liverpool
Jenner; Glos

Offline Candolim_Imp

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Re: Frustration re: Merchant Navy
« Reply #35 on: Saturday 18 February 06 14:53 GMT (UK) »
.....................
Maurice's cousin, Ian, turned up at the hotel on Sunday evening, and was able to tell us so much about the family, Maurice was known as Woodsley to his family. Enid died when the children were very young, and their father... who had been a butler (but not a sailor) was in the psychiatric hospital (where he remained until his death in the 1990's)... and Maurice and Leila were raised by their aunt Doreen, Ian's mother... so Maurice was like an older brother to Ian. Enid and Doreen's mother was Viola Small, who lived into her 90's. They lived in kings village/Dayrells Rd, St Michael and went to church & school at st Matthias (Ian still lives close to where they grew up)

From the conversations with the various people, it came to light that Mike had a brother in Barbados, and Clyde offered to pass on a message to him... so on Monday evening Mike's brother, Dale, turned up at the hotel and we were joined by Ian. An amazing moment!

The following evening, Ian took us to see Alphin again, and he was able to give us Brandforde Rollins' birth and death dates (1914-1998) and the death date of Leila in 1988. By then we had taken a trip to the Archives, and found a very likely birth record for Viola Small in 1897 at St Matthias to Helen Small. Sadly some other records we hoped to view were not held there or were too deteriorated to be consulted... so we are still wanting Brandforde's birth details... but now we have a birthdate we may be able to get the certificate. Alphin gave us a huge bottle of rum! We then visited Ian's family and stopped to see Dale.

Mike went back to see Dale again the following evening and met some of his children and grandchildren, who seemed suitably gobsmacked by the arrival of a new uncle.

On our last couple of days, we hired a mini moke and toured the island a bit and tracked down the original Small plantation (which was established between 1659 & 1874... as the latter date is of the first map on which they appear). The plantation was in St Philip, near Ragged Point, and we believe we found the original mill tower, now on the land of a large private property (so we nipped up the drive, snapped a few pics and dashed out again)

Yesterday, Ian dropped by the hotel before we left to say goodbye and give us aother huge bottle of rum and Dale met us at the Airport to see us off and we exchanged some photos.

So from having vague (and a little incorrect) details of 2 Bajan Smalls, we now have an array of Smalls to add to the tree, including Mike's grandmother, whose name we didn't have before and the next 2 generations back, we also know that Helen Small had another daughter, whose daughter, Cissy Small, was mother to Norma Joyce Small who in turn had 8 children... some of whose names we have from the St Matthias registers which the church allowed us to view.... we've found the plantation the Small slaves came from........and of course the biggest discovery was the brother Mike never knew!
Hodge; Southport, Lancs
Pugh; Salop, Liverpool
Hulm; Bootle, Southport
Guildford; Liverpool
Clausen; Denmark, Liverpool
Yapp/Yopp; Salop
Marshall, Rimmer, Howard, Johnson, Jackson; Southport
Bury; Heref, Herts
Dady; Norfolk, Southport
Colebourne; Liverpool
Small; Barbados, Liverpool
Murray; West Indies, Liverpool
Williams; Africa, Liverpool
Jenner; Glos