Author Topic: Hey Behindthefrogs, my coat of arms there  (Read 10810 times)

Offline Pistolero

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Re: Hey Behindthefrogs, my coat of arms there
« Reply #9 on: Monday 18 October 10 13:39 BST (UK) »
Hey David, could you send me again  that Edelen coat of arms you sent that was like the one you have by your name here but had the little cross in the upper section please? If I am not mistaken, that was the one my aunt researched and found was Richard Edelen's. It was identicle to yours but had the little anchor cross in the upper section. You said it may have come from the Offley arms. Well, what about what I said about reading that in time they okayed it for all sons of a man to use his arms rather than just the first born. Was that true? That Richard Edelen who had the arms on his carraige door, he came to Maryland in 1664 and had like five or six kids. I am descended from Christopher, his youngest of four sons.

And yes, I, who love history and have read a bit of heraldry, would never just up and use or adapt another family's arms for my own use. I think they ought to enforce heraldric laws of such nature everywhere, not just in England.

Abt that one pic I sent you behindthefrogs of that coat of arms with the plain silver shield and single centered red achor cross, which the people who sent it to us said was the oldest known Edelen coat of arms. My Uncle had a gold ring with that coat of arms engraved in it. A beautiful ring! I think it was a simple, neat coat of arms. I wish I knew for sure it was indeed an old Edelen coat of arms. I always figured that the little cross in the upper section of Richard Edelen's arms was in honor of that coat of arms of his ancestor. But may be wroing.
Later,
David Edelen

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Offline Just Kia

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Re: Hey Behindthefrogs, my coat of arms there
« Reply #10 on: Monday 18 October 10 14:22 BST (UK) »
Well, what about what I said about reading that in time they okayed it for all sons of a man to use his arms rather than just the first born. Was that true?
Stephen answers that question in his replies above ;)
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Offline behindthefrogs

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Re: Hey Behindthefrogs, my coat of arms there
« Reply #11 on: Monday 18 October 10 14:57 BST (UK) »
I would have thought it much more likely that the coat of arms containing the cross (flory) originate somewhere in the Offley family.  There is a direct line between Richard who came out to Maryland and his grandmother Catherine Offley who married Phillip Edelen and it seems to be her upbringing in Germany which causes the first use that I have seen identified of this particular spelling of the name.

The arms of that branch of the Offley family use a blue cross flory impaled with the arms of the Harding family both with the addition of some birds to each of the shields.  As a cross is more likely to have been red in an original coat of arms a colour change in granting the arms to a younger member of the Ofley family seems likely.

The fact that the College of Arms granted those in my avatar to Cronian Edelen with just the added difference of the blue cross flory seems to possibly reject the red cross as an original Edelen arms.  I haven't found any historic use in the Edlin family.  Do you know how old the ring is?  I seem to remember that Cronian knew of its existence but would have to check a volume of old correspondence to be sure.

David
Living in Berkshire from Northampton & Milton Keynes
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Offline Stephen J F Plowman

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Re: Hey Behindthefrogs, my coat of arms there
« Reply #12 on: Monday 18 October 10 21:59 BST (UK) »
I've had a quick play around with one of the Edelin blazons I found.  Do you know of any others?
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Offline behindthefrogs

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Re: Hey Behindthefrogs, my coat of arms there
« Reply #13 on: Monday 18 October 10 22:21 BST (UK) »
That is the one in my avatar.

The following is the Crolian Edelen version with the crosses addedbeing blue.

David
Living in Berkshire from Northampton & Milton Keynes
DETAILS OF MY NAMES ARE IN SURNAME INTERESTS, LINK AT FOOT OF PAGE
Wilson, Higgs, Buswell, PARCELL, Matthews, TAMKIN, Seckington, Pates, Coupland, Webb, Arthur, MAYNARD, Caves, Norman, Winch, Culverhouse, Drakeley.
Johnson, Routledge, SHIRT, SAICH, Mills, SAUNDERS, EDLIN, Perry, Vickers, Pakeman, Griffiths, Marston, Turner, Child, Sheen, Gray, Woolhouse, Stevens, Batchelor
Census Info is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Pistolero

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Re: Hey Behindthefrogs, my coat of arms there
« Reply #14 on: Tuesday 19 October 10 01:00 BST (UK) »
Hello again,
That one for Croilan Edelen is the one that I used to have in a frame. My great aunt Pauline got it somewhere and said it was the one that our Richard Edelen used who came from England. If I remember correctly the cross was a dark color and not red, but other wise the arms was just like yours.

As for the ring I mentioned. It was not old. He just liked that one coat of arms I sent you with the silver shield and one red anchor cross and sort of adapted it for himself. He had that ring made for him with that particular coat of arms on it. It was a nice ring though.  I thought of adapting that one too as I did not know if I was allowed (by rules and laws of heraldry) to use the one Richard Edelen used since I descend from his fourth son. But speaking of that, I don't know if the same rules and laws would allow me the use of the other either?!?

Offline Pistolero

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Re: Hey Behindthefrogs, my coat of arms there
« Reply #15 on: Tuesday 19 October 10 01:04 BST (UK) »
By the way Stephen,  thanks for your replies. In fact one of my ancestors was a Stenhouse, a sept of the Bruce Clan. I wonder if they had any coats of arms. It was my great great grandfather Ebenezer Stenhouse came from Scotland in early 1800s to South Carolina. His daughter Carolina Hamilton Stenhouse being my great grandmother.
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Offline Stephen J F Plowman

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Re: Hey Behindthefrogs, my coat of arms there
« Reply #16 on: Tuesday 19 October 10 10:23 BST (UK) »
By the way Stephen,  thanks for your replies. In fact one of my ancestors was a Stenhouse, a sept of the Bruce Clan. I wonder if they had any coats of arms. It was my great great grandfather Ebenezer Stenhouse came from Scotland in early 1800s to South Carolina. His daughter Carolina Hamilton Stenhouse being my great grandmother.

There are no recorded Arms for Stenhouse in Volume 1 of the Scottish Ordinary (1672-1901).  I have not got sight of Volume 2 at the moment.  In Scottish heraldry it is possible to petition for Arms in the name of a deceased ancestor who fell under the Lyon Court's jurisdiction (lived in Scotland &/or in America pre-1770s).  The descendants can then petition for their own Arms based upon those of their ancestor. 

Burke's General Armory does have one entry for Stenhouse but there are no biographical or geographical details which renders it effectively useless.

Edited to add that there are four entries for Stenhouse in Vol 2 but all from the 1960s.
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Offline Stephen J F Plowman

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Re: Hey Behindthefrogs, my coat of arms there
« Reply #17 on: Tuesday 19 October 10 11:04 BST (UK) »
One of the problems here is the marked lack of records for the Edelin Arms prior to the late 19th century.  If the Arms were in use in the 17th century in England I would have hoped that they would have been recorded in the Heralds’ Visitations. 

It is not unusual in England for families to use Arms for a few generations only to find that they had no legal standing. My ggg-grandfather married a co-heiress, a branch of whose family were recorded in various Burke’ publications as bearing Arms.  When I delved further to see if her branch could use the Arms I found that they were not “lawful”. That branch was granted “new” arms in the 1880 which were based upon the assumed Arms but with major differences. 

There is an interest mismatch between the UK and US branches of Richard Edelin’s family.  As far as the laws of heraldry go in England & Wales, there are no Arms to inherit because they do not officially exist.  That would also be the case for the American branch up until Independence.  Thereafter there was no heraldic control and US citizens were free to assume Arms at will. 

As for the ring I mentioned. It was not old. He just liked that one coat of arms I sent you with the silver shield and one red anchor cross and sort of adapted it for himself. He had that ring made for him with that particular coat of arms on it. It was a nice ring though.  I thought of adapting that one too as I did not know if I was allowed (by rules and laws of heraldry) to use the one Richard Edelen used since I descend from his fourth son. But speaking of that, I don't know if the same rules and laws would allow me the use of the other either?!?

As you are in the US my suggestion would be to use the Arms of Richard Edelin differenced with a Martlet to show descent from the fourth son and then register it for free at The U.S. Heraldic Registry.  If you want any assistance please send me a PM.
Plowman - Dorset
Gollop - Dorset
Taunton - Dorset
Carver - Norfolk
Oyns - all
Tweedy - all
Also British Heraldry (www.heraldry-online.org.uk)