Hayes of Carrigatoher Tipperary

[Jan007]

I should add that my Thomas's immediate family as researched by the Nenagh center was spot on.  All of his children match exactly to other records I have found.  The marriage for Thomas and his wife Catherine Hogan is also correct.  The research results letter does not indicate any doubt about Thomas's parents being John Hayes/Bridget Quigley and considering that there are sponsors named Quigley for both Thomas's siblings as well as his children I believe in the connection.  Thomas's sibling (including Matthew) were derived by finding records for children with the same parents in the parish register.  A total of 8 children of John Hayes/Bridget Quigley were found between 1829 and 1844.  They also provided a marriage date for John H./Bridget Q. as 7 Feb 1825.  Do you have a marriage date for your Hayes/Bererky ancestors?

Are you aware that there is a Matthew Hayes on the Griffiths valuation in 1850 and also in the 1825 Tithe Applotment Books for that exact townland?  What I do not find is any mention of the names Berkery or Carmody.  More to follow up on.

[Shibro]

Jan007. Hello again.
The information I received from Nenagh is as follows: Matthew Hayes (Carrigatoher) married Ellen Berkery (Carrigatoher) 6/12/1822.   Cannot find record of marriage.  Nenagh advised this is as far as they can go.
Children:  Brigid, 1829 (sponsors McGrath/Kelly); Mary 1831 (Flynn/Commons); Michael 1834 ( McGrath/Ready); Matthew 1837 (Denis Hogan/mgt Commons); Matthew 1839 (John & Peggy Hogan)
All baptisms took place at Youghalarra. I am presuming that Matthew 1837 died hence next child named Matthew.  This is my ggrandfather. This is marked by Nenagh.
Matthew & Honora married at Youghalarra 16/2/1858.  Their children: Mary 1860 (Thomas Hayes/Peggy Hayes); Patt 1862 (Cleary/Carmody); Ellen 1863 (Honora Farrell); +Matthew 1867 (Lacy/McDonnell) Michael 1869 (Tom Hayes/Fogarty);Thomas 1871 (Tom Hayes/Lacey);Margaret 1874 (Hayes/Hayes); Hanora 1877 (Patt Hayes/Ellen Hayes)
+My grandfather.
Parents of Honora Carmody were Denis (Coomroe) and Mary Cleary (Barhaha).  Witnesses: Pat Carmody/WFD Hogan (?winifred)
Yesterday I searched for marriage records of Matthew H/Mary Hogan.  No luck but I did find baptism details of their son John who was baptised at Burgess, Jan 1840.  Sponsors were Rody Hogan and Onny Hayes.
Yes I have printed off Griffith's Valuation for Matthew Hayes.  It indicates the area shown to me on the map at Nenagh Library but was it my Matthew? Of course, my father was also named Matthew!!
Wish he was here to explain all to me.
Cheers, shibro

[Jan007]

Based on the idea that your Hayes family came from Matthew Hayes and Ellen Berkery and mine from John Hayes and Bridget Quigley we would not be related ( as far as records go back to show).  But the questions is about Matthew Hayes who married Hanora Carmody.    There seem to be conflicting online claims as to who his parents were- Matthew and Ellen or John and Bridget.  As you said, I wish they were her to explain it all. 

If Matthew were the son of John, you would expect one of his children (probably the eldest son) to be named John.  But none were.  That would lead me to start to believe that Matthew was not John's son, but Matthew's.  However, Matthew's age at marriage to Honora was very young for the time, only 19 if he were born in 1839 to Matthew and Ellen.  The Matthew that was the son of John and Bridget was born 1830.   If he married in 1858 the age would be more appropriate.  Any thoughts?

What I do notice is a lot of common surnames names between your sponsors and mine.  I'd say we have some sort of connection, maybe a generation back.  Since the records don't go that far back, we may never know if my John and your Matthew may have been brothers.

But I'm still hoping to find a definitive answer about Matthew born 1831 in my family.  If you are certain your younger Matthew was born  1839 then they are not the same person and I will have to continue to search.

Janet

[Aussie1947]

Hi Janet and Shibro,

I'm back on this thread, my Hayes/Quigley connection is through Catherine Hayes (1839) who married Adam Young at Smythesdale near Ballarat in Victoria in 1862 but sadly she died on 16th April 1870 at Smythesdale.  In the Coronor's report it states that she was going to visit her mother that day an Cambrian Hill just a few miles away on the Bunninyong side of Ross Creek.

Catherine Hayes had 3 brothers and a sister come out to Victoria.

The information that I have is as follows.
Catherine Hayes married Adam Young in 1862 and had 3 children.
Matthew Hayes married Catherine Bourke in 1865 and had 10 chidren (that I can find)
Edward Hayes married Mary McGrath in 1856 and had 19 children (ditto)
Michael Hayes married Margaret McGrath and had 8 chidren. (ditto)
Margaret Hayes married Thomas Hayes in 1864 and had 10 children (ditto)

Searching around for burials I found that at the Stawell Cemetery in Victoria the burial for a Bridget Hayes born Ireland, 81 years buried 13th October 1877.

Also buried in the same grave were

Matthew Hayes, buried 26th April 1889, of Stawell, 54 years born in Ireland and two children Michael Hayes 11 months buried 31st May 1875 and Matthew Hayes, 12 months, buried 2nd September 1878.  Both of these children's burials match the death registration years and place for two of Matthew Hayes' children.

So in the one grave there are 4 Hayes persons and it looks like the mother Brigdet Hayes, her son Matthew and 2 grandsons.

There also is a marriage document that I found for Bridget Quigley and John Hayes.
7th Feb 1825, Parish of  YOUGHALARRA, Tipperary.
Witnesses, Anthony Dwyer and Patk Dwyer.

Gerry
 


 

[Shibro]

Hello Janet,
Re "my" Matthew, born 1839, who married Honora Carmody, their second  daughter was named Ellen which makes me think she was named after her grandmother, Ellen Berkery. 
According to my late mother, Granddad told her there was a "step" in the family but who knows if that was true or not.  I mentioned this to Nenagh but they didn't come back with anything.  I think it is time to contact them again.
Regards,  Shirley

[Jan007]

Hi Gerry,
I'm still not certain that your Hayes family is from John Hayes/Bridget Quigley.  Here is why.  The research that I had conducted found no Edward Hayes as a child of theirs.  He could have been missed as his birth year of 1827 would fit the family.  But considering they found all of the others I'm inclined to think he was not their child.  Another discrepancy is with your Matthew.  You indicate his grave is marked that he was 54 when he died in 1889.  He would have been born 1834-1835.  My Matthew was born 1831.  You don't indicate what happened to siblings Honora (1833), Bridget (1837) or Judith (1841).  If the mother Bridget Quigley did emigrate with her family, I would have expected the others who were born in the years between to also be with them. 

I have the same marriage record for John Hayes/Bridget Quigley as found by the Family History Research Service in Nenagh.  They were the ones that provided the names and baptism dates for the 8 children of that marriage. All of the children from 1829-1844 share the same parents.   As I was focusing on my direct ancestor, their son Thomas, they also located his marriage to Catherine Hogan in 1859 and their 10 children.  Through records here in the US I have confirmed all of the children were correct as were Thomas's parents as John Hayes/Bridget Quigley.

Did you also use the Family History Research Service in Nenagh to find your records?  I was  pleased  with their service and  found what they provided to be accurate.  However it is possible that they are connecting families that don't belong together.  That happened to me in Limerick with another branch.  We discovered the error after a few correspondences with potential "family".

If you have baptism records for your Edward, Matthew, Michael, Catherine or Margaret I'd like to compare their sponsors with mine.  If you have birth years that would be helpful as well.  Do  you have anything  in the way of official documents that link any of these children to parents John Hayes/Bridget Quigley?  Also, did any of the children name their sons John?  Particularly did Edward, Matthew or Michael name their first son John?  That would  have been the naming tradition.  It was followed in my branch.  The expectation would be that each son would name their first son after the paternal grandfather- in this case John Hayes.  Although it's not a guarantee, it is a clue if they did.

Any thoughts?

Janet

[Jan007]

Shirley,
I agree with your  idea about Ellen.  There are no Ellens in my Hayes family at all.  I find no "step" family in my John Hayes family.  John and Bridget were the parents of all the children between 1829 and 1844.

I note that  a Matthew Hayes was a sponsor for 3 of John's children- Honora in 1833, Michael in 1835 and Judith in 1841.  Hes' the only man that sponsored more than 1 child.  The only other  Hayes sponsor was a woman- Onny ( possibly Honora?) who also sponsored Michael in 1835.
Maybe this Matthew was  a brother of my John Hayes?

More  research needed.

Janet

[Jan007]

Unfortunately I have not yet gotten a response from the Research Service in Nenagh asking for clarification of their previous findings.  I did look into the online records they refer to on the web site.  What I found was that there were in fact 2 Matthew Hayes baptized in Youghalarra parish- one born to John Hayes/Bridget Quigley (who were married 1825) in 1831 and one born to Matthew Hayes/Ellen Berkery (who were married 1822) in 1837 (the 1839 birth didn't come up in my search).  Only 1 Matthew Hayes married in the Youghalarra parish and that was in 1858 to Hanoria Carmody.  But which Matthew was it?  Maybe a clue can be gleaned from Hanoria Carmody.  If her parents were Denis Carmody/Mary Cleary (married 1822), she is one of 3 children of that couple that I found.  She was eldest born 1831, Mary in 1836, and Denis in 1839.

Does it make sense that a woman born 1831 would marry a man born 1837?  Possibly.  She would have been 27 at marriage and 46 when her last child was born (1877 in Youghalrra parish).  The names of the children of Matthew Hayes/Hanoria Carmody also give a clue-  a girl named Ellen possibly after her grandmother (Ellen Berkery) and no boy named John which would have been a grandfather's name (John Hayes/Bridget Quigley).  No Ellens in the  Hayes/QUigley line at all where they are in the  Hayes/Berkery line.  And no Johns in the Hayes /Berkery line at all where they are in the Hayes/Quigley line.

The only hesitation I have is regarding Hanoria Carmody's birth in 1831.  Perhaps the 1831 child died and another was named the same later that did not come up in my search.  I was not successful using wildcards and the spellings varied so I may have missed some people (Hanoria, Hanora, Nora, Honora would all be separate searches).  Also searching in the particular parish requires entering a first name and I had to guess at those possible children of Denis Carmody/Mary Cleary.

For now I believe that Matthew Hayes that married Hanoria Carmody in Youghalarra parish was the son of Matthew Hayes/Ellen Berkery.  If I hear back from the research center I will update. And I'll keep this information in case something later links to it. That leaves me with no leads on any of the siblings of my Thomas Hayes.  Maybe they all died young or never married. 

Janet

[Shibro]

Hello Janet,
The Matthew Hayes/Ellen Berkery marriage is the family information supplied to me by the Research Centre, N enagh.  The list of their children shows two Matthews, one born 1837, the second baptised 12 Mar 1839 .   They have highlighted this one. I presume the first one died.   The second one is the Matthew who married Honora Carmody. All baptism entries show her as "Onny".   Actually, the marriage record names her as Judith Carmody.  I mentioned this to Nenagh when I first received it and they replied there is no record of a Judith Carmody so we both presumed that the priest made a mistake.These two are my great-grandparents.
Re the Carmodys.  I have information from Nenagh stating Denis Carmody married Mary Cleary.  Their three children were Honora, 1831; Mary 1836;Denis 1839.
I have found one Denis Carmody from Limerick.  I also found a Denis Carmody who migrated to the US.  Denis C/Mary Cleary were married 17 Feb 1822.  If Honora (1831) was their first child, there is a nine year gap between marriage and first born.  Could there have been babies lost in this period?
My grandfather left Ireland in  1889.  He married Ellen Keeffe from Galway whom he met on the ship coming out.  Their four sons were Matthew, Thomas, John and Patrick.
I hope you are able to get some satisfaction from all your research,.
Regards, Shirley