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Author Topic: Dumfries-shire, Kerr, Gowanlock, Bell  (Read 6041 times)

Offline janeli_1

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Dumfries-shire, Kerr, Gowanlock, Bell
« on: Monday 18 October 10 20:00 BST (UK) »
My 2X great grandparents John Kerr (1801-1877) and Mary Gowanlock (1801-1879) were both born in Hoddam parish ……. John Lochmaben and Mary St. Mungo and both died at Red Hall Wigton, Cumberland.  They married 1827 St Mungo.  1841 census has the family living Grahamshall, Hoddam Parish, Dumfriesshire with children: William(1827), Jannet(1832), Mary(1836), Phillis(1838), James(1840).  Another daughter, Phillis had died 1836 and another son, John was born later in 1846.

John’s father William (1780-1844) married Phillis Bell (1777-1842).  They are in 1841 census in St Mungo Dumfriesshire.  With them are Archibald Kerr (b 1815) and William Kerr (b1835).  Perhaps I have the wrong census record as I don’t know who either of the last 2 are.  I have William’s (1780-1844) father as another William.  I know nothing of John’s mother Phillis Bell’s family.

I have Mary Gowanlock’s father as James but know nothing about him.

I have lots of Canadian information as at least 3 of Jon and Mary’s children immigrated here.

Thanks for any input.

Jan

Offline csc

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Re: Dumfries-shire, Kerr, Gowanlock, Bell
« Reply #1 on: Monday 18 October 10 21:47 BST (UK) »
john/mary had 2 phyllis.s  the first one is 1830 2nd 1837  the first one is down as philip daughter    think marys mother may also be phyllis  csc
DUMFRIES. KERR,DICKSON,BELL,HETHERINGTON,HILL
CUMBERLAND, CHARLTON,YOUNG,SPARKS,HEWITT,IRELAND. 
ORKNEY,CURSITER,DREVER,PEACE,COOPER,    
FAIR ISLE, MALCOLMSON,LESLIE.


Offline janeli_1

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Re: Dumfries-shire, Kerr, Gowanlock, Bell
« Reply #2 on: Monday 18 October 10 23:11 BST (UK) »
I have both Philis'.  John's mother was Phillis Bell.  If Mary was born 15 Nov. 1800 Sorrysyke, St. Mungo, her parents were James Gowanlock and Philis Carruthers, according to IGI.  There are some Canadian relatives that believe she may be christened 26 Apr 1801, Lochmaben with parents Walter Gowanlock and Tinnie Bettie.   IGI has a 3rd possibility christening 5 Dec 1800 Lochmaben and parents Walter Gowanlock and Margaret Jardine.    Do you have her attached to John Kerr with the St Mungo birth? 
Jan

Offline Maggie1895

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Re: Dumfries-shire, Kerr, Gowanlock, Bell
« Reply #3 on: Saturday 23 October 10 12:06 BST (UK) »
janeli,   Scotland's People has both christenings listed as separate entitities so I think you have to assume there were at least two Mary Gowanlocks born around the same time, father's name Walter, both christened in Lochmaben, but no record for any baptism in St Mungo, or of any baptism in Scotland between 1799 and 1805 for a Mary Gowanlock with a father called James.    Not all pre-registration baptisms are recorded so that doesn't mean that Mary, born in St Mungo to James and Phillis, doesn't exist, just that there's no record of her baptism.

I know in my own family I have my great grandmother and her first cousin born within 2 months of each other in the same place, both christened Margaret after their grandmother, but then their fathers were brothers and had different names so we eventually disentangled them.   For you it's more complicated as two of the 3 possible fathers are Walter Gowanlock, possibly cousins, who knows?, so there'll be more detective work needed to divide them up.

The basic SP search brings you:
5 December 1800.   Mary Gowanlock, daughter of Walter Gowanlock and Margaret Jardine at Lochmaben.    GRO reference to view the whole thing 840/00 0010 0116
26 April 1801.  Mary Gowanlock, daughter of Walter Gowanlock and Tinnie Bettie, also in Lochmaben.  Reference for that is 840/00 0010 0118

These confirm the details you've found on the Canadian tree, and on IGI, but if you are absolutely sure that your Mary was born in St Mungo to a James and Phillis, then it doesn't look as if either of them relate to her.   

Added
This was still bugging me, I felt I'd missed something then realised I had searched the name as 'Exact' instead of 'Traditional soundex'   Going back and searching 1799-1806 again I found these 3 baptisms, all in St Mungos:

19 Sept 1799.  Janet, daughter of James Gowenlock GROS ref 847/00 0010 0131
15 Nov 1801. Mary, daughter of James Gownlock. GROS ref 847/00 0010 133
28 May 1804.  Philis, daughter of James Gownlock. GROS ref 847/00 0010 0135

There may have been more baptisms in the family pre-1799 or after 1806.   I suggest you go into Scotlands People and have a look for yourself, it's not an expensive subscription site - you only buy credits for searches and for whatever original records you choose to view.

You say you had a birth date for 'your' Mary of 15 November 1800.  That is not likely to be a birth date, whether your Mary or not, as that is given as the date of her baptism.    It is quite rare to get birth dates recorded, but the date of baptism, taken with ages declared in later records, usually gives you a clue.   (unless like some of mine they did baptism job lots for several children aged babyhood to 10 altogether, in which case it doesn't help at all)   Still with 3 baptism spread across those few years it would seem to indicate that James had his daughters baptised when babies.
Census information Crown Copywright www.nationalarchives.gov.uk / National Archives of Scotland

Offline janeli_1

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Re: Dumfries-shire, Kerr, Gowanlock, Bell
« Reply #4 on: Saturday 23 October 10 16:40 BST (UK) »
Wow!  Thanks so very much!  I have connected with someone in Dumfriesshire who found a record of marriage for John Kerr and Mary Gowanlock.  Mary's father is James for sure.
I will look through what you have sent!
THANK YOU!
Jan

Offline janeli_1

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Re: Dumfries-shire, Kerr, Gowanlock, Bell
« Reply #5 on: Saturday 23 October 10 17:08 BST (UK) »
I thought I could do a personal reply but can't find out how!!
I have researched lots on my Dad's family in England and learned that where people say they are born is not necessarily where they are registered.   You have a clearer picture of the geography there.

John Kerr and Mary Gowanlock were living at Grahamshall in the Parish of Hoddam, 1841 census.   IGI of Wm Kerr and Philis shows Wm born Lochmaben 1801.  Both Wm and Mary were buried in St Mungo church yard although they had moved to Cumberland by then.   

I am not at all sure about Mary's mother's first name.  There is a James and Phillis with lots of children but no child named Mary.  I think since John and Mary were married in St Mungo that the baptism 15 Nov 1801 you found is quite likely correct and confirms the 1801 date I originally had. 

I have a subscription to Scotlandspeople but have been cautious as credits go quickly.  You have given me enough to make it worth a look.   If this is my Mary then are Janet and Philis siblings?   If it is the same James as father that would be the case.  With a daughter Philis it is still possible James' wife was Philis ......... but so far no proof.

Maggie, I am so very grateful for you help and very thorough research

Jan




 

Offline Maggie1895

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Re: Dumfries-shire, Kerr, Gowanlock, Bell
« Reply #6 on: Sunday 24 October 10 16:32 BST (UK) »
There is a possibility there may have been 2 James Gownlock / Gowanlock / Gowenlocks in the area but it's by no means certain.   

When I looked at James and Phillis in the 1841 census in St Mungo they are both listed as 62, born around 1779.    That doesn't rule them out as being the parents of the first baptism shown, but even allowing for rounding the ages they were probably around 20.
If you compare that with a list of baptisms they show Phillis Carruthers on some and not on others.
1799 Janet - only James Gowenlock mentioned
1801 Mary - only James Gownlock mentioned
1804 Philis - only James Gownlock mentioned, but her name is Philis, so could she be named for her mother?
1807 Andrew - only James Gownlock mentioned.
1809 James - only James Gownlock mentioned
1812 - John, the first of the children shown in the 1841 census.  Both parents are listed - James Gowenlock and Philis Carruthers
1815 - Jean, again both parents James / Phillis listed
1820 - William, and 1823, Walter, both James and Philis are listed on both.

In the 1851 census James and Philis are still going strong at 77, with John and Walter still at home, together with Walter's wife (Helena) and children.      In 1861 James is still there, Philis presumably having died, and both John and William are at home at the ages of 48 and 38 respectively.

Two possibilities - either this is one huge family, with births spread across a 25 year period, which is perfectly possible, or you have two separate local families, one with possible births (including Mary) from 1799 to around 1809, and the John/Philis family starting with John in 1812.    That second possibility is given some weight from the fact that in 1851 and 1861 John is still at home, presumably the eldest son and heir - but you can't be absolutely sure.   It could be just that all the elder children had left home before the first census in 1841.

One way I think you can sort it out, with a bit of luck, for once and for all is to go back in SP and search 'Wills and Testaments'.  I just did and the Will of James Gowanlock, Farmer of Broom, St Mungo, was registered at Dumfries Sherrif Court on 27.08.1864.   It will cost you £5 to see / download the document but hopefully it will answer your questions.   If James was well enough off to have his Will registered in 1864 he should have detailed to whom he left his farm at the very least - if the eldest son is John, then you have to assume 2 different families and the births 1799 -1809 weren't to him and Philis.    The GROs reference is SC15/41/12.   

If you are really lucky he may have listed all his children in bequests.   There aren't a lot of Wills from around that time, but those that are are often very detailed.  Good luck

Census information Crown Copywright www.nationalarchives.gov.uk / National Archives of Scotland

Offline janeli_1

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Re: Dumfries-shire, Kerr, Gowanlock, Bell
« Reply #7 on: Wednesday 27 October 10 00:10 BST (UK) »
What fun I have been having!  It is amazing how one small piece of information can open up so much.

First someone helped me prove that Mary Gowanlock's father was James and not Walter as it is clearly on marriage info.  Then, a suggestion to check into James Gowanlock's will proved that I had the right James to be Mary's father.  It seems that the first three children were girls and maybe birth registration wasn't too important.  1841 census of course doesn't list children who married and left home.   The will clearly states that James was married to Phillis Carruthers, the children on 1841 census are listed plus married daughters including Mary Gowanlock married to John Kerr living at Grahamshall!   Bingo!   John and Mary left for England a few months after the will was written so I got really lucky!!
To each of you has helped .......... a big THANK YOU!
Jan

Offline janeli_1

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Re: Dumfries-shire, Kerr, Gowanlock, Bell
« Reply #8 on: Saturday 19 February 11 19:01 GMT (UK) »
Maggie,  I was reading over some old postings.   When you first helped me, I was brand new to scotlandspeople.    I just now clued in to the difference between 'exact' and 'soundex".  Am finding much more!

THANKS!!