Joshua Say: Birth Lookup Soham

[esdel]

A few random thoughts.

Joshua and Mary married in Oct 1778, yet their apparent first child, Rachel, wasn’t born until 1 Apr 1781. Where were they in that two year period.

There’s a big gap in the Soham registers in the decades before Joshua and Mary started having children in 1781, where are no Says. I don’t think Joshua was from Soham.

You mention Little Plumstead, just outside Norwich. I think it’s a red herring. A Joshua and Mary baptised a daughter, Ann, there in 1789. Unless it was an adult baptism she can’t have been the daughter of Joshua and Mary Utting who married in Norwich in 1749 and baptised a son, so you say, in Little Plumstead in 1750. It looks more likely that the Joshua and Mary who also baptised two children in Norwich in 1781 and 1783, and couldn’t have been the Soham couple as there are two children born in Jan and May 1783, one to each couple, was the Joshua baptised in Lt Plumstead in 1750. So I would rule them out. Reference to Lt Plumstead and St James Pockthorpe, Norwich parish registers might help in eliminating him.

There is a Joshua Say of Little Plumstead, Norfolk who married Mary Utting 1 Oct 1749 at St Mary in the Marsh, Norwich....They seemed to stay in Wortwell and Joshua senior died there in Wortwell in 1755.......

   
The thread mentioned below puts the death in Lt Plumstead, not Wortwell (as does the LDS pilot site) . Thus there's no link between Norwich and Wortwell

You make the point that Joshua seemed keen to name a son John (although it might simply be a case that he wasn’t very imaginative with names), which if you’re right might suggest that his father was John. Have you seen the thread at http://boards.ancestry.co.uk/surnames.say/42.1.1/mb.ashx where it’s suggested that he might be the son (or grandson?) of John Say who died in 1763 – presumably the same John whose 1763 will Rosie found?

Have you checked Wortwell parish register for baptisms?

I'd start with the 1763 will

David

Many thanks David, for this friendly, thoughtful and helpful message.
Let me try to comment on the points you make, one by one
As I do not know how to do this I will copy them between <<    >> below, in reverse order:-

<< >> If does not permit me to copy your words "I'd start with the 1763 will", threatening "Adamantine chain and penal fire" it I do, on the crounds, no doubt, of "copyright".

But how you I read the 1763 will?

<< >> Ah! It won't let me copy ANY of what you say!

So a paraphrase is forced upon us:-
1. Joshua and Mary "apparent" first child - why it tok 2 years?

[esdel]

David

I did reply.
It cut me off and gave me no clue whether or not it had sent what I had written
If I continue I fear I will be filling up the thread with "repeat re-quotes" etc etc

esdel

[bedfordshire boy]

Using the National Archives link I gave, which takes you direct to the Wills search page, complete John, Say, and Wortwell in the appropriate boxes. You'll get just one result. Have your credit card at the ready and click on Add to shopping. Once you complete the purchase a scan of the will be sent to your email address. It looks to be a pretty long will - 7 pages. Hopefully somewhere in those 7 pages he'll refer to a son, or grandson, named Joshua!

David

[bedfordshire boy]

It cut me off

Possibly because with my fairly long message quoted the whole message was too long. Possibly!

[esdel]

A farmer might have property in both places and regularly move back and forth. So I am hoping to find a Will that clarifies this.
When I was up there 2 years ago I visited a place called Say Farm

Reasons to travel to and from Soham

I have found my notes on Say Farm (Wortwell)


Control/Operation and Ownership of Say's Farm

around 1610 Richard(fr) Say born
            Richard(fr) inherits farm           
            his son Richard born
1637        Richard's brother Robert born at Alburgh
1661        Richard(fr) dies
            Richard inherits
1662        Robert marries Mary Hale
abt 1670    John(ggfr) born, son of Robert + Mary Hale
abt 1700    John (ggfr) marries
abt 1702    John(ggfr) has son John(gfr)
            Richard dies: Robert inherits farm
abt 1720    John(gfr) marries Prudence
1723        John(fr) born son of John(gfr)+Prudence
1723        Robert dies: John(gfr) inherits
1750        John() born son of John(fr)
            John(fr) dies
1763        John(gfr) dies
            will 1762 states John() gets annual rents
            maybe because John() is under age (etc) so
            Farm to be overseen by Philip Meadows: held in trust for John()
            John() dies intestate (as teenager?)           
            Philip passes farm to his sister Sarah Martineau
            Sarah dies
            Sarah's heirs pass USE OF farm to our Joshua Say
            Joshua returns to Wortwell
1802        Joshua sues for ownership
1804        Joshua final (5th) attempt to have a son John
1818        Joshua dies         
           

[bedfordshire boy]

Say's Farm was in Wortwell?

As I see it Joshua moved away from home to live at Soham where he married and had children. He then moved (back?) to Wortwell.

What exactly was the basis of his 1802 action for ownership of Says Farm? He presumably would have provided some sort of proof that he was an heir who should inherit. It's this that you need to prove who he was.

David

[esdel]

David

The whole saga is rather interesting (more so if you can follow the thread of my notes!)

The farm was theirs from 1600+
Then someone got folk in to run it.
That bloke died and the farm runners had died and passed it in to THEIR children.

The correct heir (Joshua, I expect, away in Soham) was in the end informed - maybe by the efforts that Lord-of-Manor (Arundel) set up to locate heirs
He returned and fought (and lost) the legal battle (I assume - he lost the farm!)

I have more on this if you are interested and WHEN(if) I find where I put it!
esdel

[JOOBLES]

This is an old thread but I thought I would add this bit.....

We don't seem to know if Joshua Say was born in Soham, he may have just lived there. He certainly married Mary Kidd there on 19.10.1778.

IF, and I doubt, he was the Joshua born in Little Plumstead, Norfolk and baptised there on 27.2.1750 then he had a sister Elizabeth, born 1752 and a brother, Joseph, born 1755. Their parents were Joshua Say and Mary Utting who were married 1.10.1749 in Norwich. But this Joshua seems to have married a Mary Middleton in L.Plumstead in 1776.

'My' Joshua and Mary (nee Kidd) had 15 children - 14 in Soham, then Lydia in Wortwell, who have been listed on here already so I won't do it again !  I am a descendant of their daughter, Mary Say, born 1791.

Due to the hassle with Says farm in Wortwell they moved back there in 1802 having been in Soham.

"John Say, Gentleman", of Wortwell died 7 March 1763 - he had Says Farm - states in his Will that he only has one son and heir, John, but he died when a teenager so didn't inherit it.  We know our Joshua was not his grandson and never the rightful heir anyway which is why he lost the claim.  Joshua may have been his great nephew.

Joshua died in Wortwell in 1818 - I have his Will. His wife, Mary, nee Kidd, died there in 1826 - I also have her Will.

All the original records can be found on Ancestry.

Good hunting !!

[JOOBLES]

RESULT ......

Finally found out about this guy - he was actually born in Pulham St. Mary in 1750 but the records are not on line yet.
Joshua's parents were Richard Say and Margaret, nee Cock. They later moved to Soham where Margaret was widowed and then remarried in 1769.

Joshua married Mary Kidd.
J.