Duttons of Hargrave, Huxley, Tattenhall.

[never give up]

Hi, I'm trying to find any information regarding an Arthur Dutton who happens to be my great grandfather, I've narrowed it down to two possible Arthurs from the area listed but can't be sure which one so was hoping some one on this forum may also be researching the Dutton tree in this area or may know a secret in the family.
The year of interest is 1865 or 1875 and I know that he was named on the baptism record of my grandads baptism but he is not listed on the birth certificate, it's a long shot I know but someone out there may have the info I need.
Cheers in advance.

[Jo Harding]

Hello never give up,

Welcome to Roots Chat and may you meet with success on your quest for information on your Dutton family.

I have some Dutton ancestors from this area and know that there are others researching this family.

There is an entry for a baptism on the IGI for Arthur Dutton, or Dulton, in Tattenhall. It shows his date of birth as 02/01/1875, baptism on 31/01/1875, son of Peter Dutton (Dulton) and Emma.

This Arthur Dutton is with his parents, Peter and Emma Dutton, in the 1881 census at Gates Heath, Golbourne Bellow. This is a stone's throw from Tattenhall. There is another child with them, Thomas, aged 10. Peter is a farmer, aged 40 and born King's Marsh, Cheshire.

I suspect you may have these details but want more intimate knowledge as you would obtain from a family member. I couldn't see anything for an Arthur bc1865.

Jo

 

[never give up]

Thanks for getting in touch, couldn't find my way around the Genes Reunited site it kept on saying no records for Duttons, I'll try again later, excuse my ignorance but what's " IGI " ?

Ok I'll tell you where I'm up to, my grandfather was born in May 1895 to a Margaret Sinclair but there is no Fathers name on the birth cert, he is then baptised in August 1895 and his Father is named on the baptism record ( Arthur Dutton / Labourer ), now I'm not sure whether he would have been present at the baptism or if Margaret had to give a name to the vicar to allow the baptism to take place, a kind of name and shame.. I've done loads of searches for Arthur and managed to uncover a few baptism entries for that area in the Chester records office, there was an 1865 Arthur born to a William Pemberton & Ann Dutton, these two got married in 1874/5 but Arthur is no where to be seen, I did find him living with a Hannah Willis ( he's fostered to her but after this date I am having trouble locating him ) so I figured if he is still alive in 1894/5 he would be 29/30 years old and Margaret would have been 19/20 years old, now the age difference may be a problem so thats why I've got him as suspect number 1.

I then found an 1873 Arthur Dutton but I believe him to be dead when he's about 11/12 years old so that's him ruled out, then I found the 1875 Arthur Dutton and he's the son of Peter & Emma Dutton, in 1895 he's 20 years old and so is Margaret so I figured two people the same age, sounds promising that's why he's suspect number 2. Exactly 1 year later he marries a Rose Chesters and Margaret marries also so then you start thinking are they both marrying on the rebound, if they were involved in the first place that is so you can see the dilema I'm in, a lot of assumptions without any real hard evidence to link them up that's why I thought if someone else is doing the Dutton tree they may just have a tale about old Arthur and be able to tie him up with what info I have.

I'm just getting used to the Tattenhall,Huxley,Hargrave area and they are all within close vicinity of one another, Margaret was a domestic servant and Arthur was a labourer so did they both work on the same farm, I know in 1891 Margaret is 15 years old and employed as a maid on a farm at Duddon Common but no sign of an Arthur anywhere, he's a slippery old so and so that's for sure.

This may be as far as I can go with the tree but I say never say never..

The search goes on.......

[Jo Harding]

Hello never give up,

The IGI is the Mormon genealogical database of people which you can access on

 http://www.familysearch.org/eng/default.asp

Your grandfather could have been baptised without his father being present, or having to have his name entered on the register. This is the usual method for a child who is born illegitimate but the register will make it clear that the child is illegitimate with some word, or phrase to that effect.

It is possible that Arthur was persuaded to go along to the baptism and have his name on record that he was the father. It seems odd that he didn't appear on the birth certificate though. He appears to have acknowledged his child after all.

The 1891 census has Arthur, born 1875 with his parents in Golbourne Bellow, this is just down the road from Duddon.

I will have a further look and see what I can find.

There is a PM about the GR entries.

Jo

[Jo Harding]

Hello never give up,

I think it would be as well to concentrate on the Arthur Dutton born 1875 to Peter and Emma Dutton. He looks the most likely candidate to me. He is probably living in close proximity to Margaret in 1891 and is the right age then.

Duddon and Gatesheath are very close to each other. A short trip down the lanes from one to the other.

I will have another look to see what else I can find on him.

Jo

[never give up]

Hello, well the baptism entry didn't have any reference to illigitamacy at all so I assume they did have a relationship and it just didn't work out, as you say the villages are all within close vicinity to one another and he does look to be the most likely suspect if you take the age into consideration.

[Jo Harding]

Hello never give up,

I have replied via PM in view of personal details.

One question that I have raised is what the entry on the marriage certificate was for father, father's address and occupation? This would indicate the relationship between father and son possibly.

I found Margaret in the 1891 census. She is a stone's throw from Gatesheath. Her place of birth is Huxley and not as they have transcribed it. Huxley is also very close to Gatesheath.

I noticed on the 1881 in Huxley, that a few houses away from the Sinclair family is a Samuel Dutton and what appears to be his family.

Jo

[ATGoldsmith]

[...]
I've done loads of searches for Arthur and managed to uncover a few baptism entries for that area in the Chester records office, there was an 1865 Arthur born to a William Pemberton & Ann Dutton, these two got married in 1874/5 but Arthur is no where to be seen, I did find him living with a Hannah Willis ( he's fostered to her but after this date I am having trouble locating him ) so I figured if he is still alive in 1894/5 he would be 29/30 years old and Margaret would have been 19/20 years old, now the age difference may be a problem so thats why I've got him as suspect number 1.
[...]

Hello everyone,

I am researching descendants of some of the Pembertons in my tree that were from the Hargrave/Huxley etc. area.  Some of these descendants from female Pembertons claim the name Dutton because that was the father's name (nothing unusual here...).  I had a look back through my tree as I was sure I had come across this Arthur, that you are talking about in the quote above, before.  But, it turns out I was thinking of a different Arthur Dutton that was born in 1844... 

However, I looked, again, at the quote above, and realised that that Arthur was baptised in 1865 to a William Pemberton and Ann Dutton.  In 1865, another Pemberton-relation of mine was born: Charlotte Pemberton.  She was baptised on 20 Aug 1865 in Hargrave to a William Pemberton (Farmer) and Maria Pemberton (Spinster) who were not married but had two other children later on: Elizabeth in 1868 and Frederick in 1871 - their baptisms also showed William and Maria to be unmarried to each other.  I cannot find any other records that clearly link to this mysterious William Pemberton of mine.  My guess WAS that, because the couple shared the same name, they weren't allowed to marry - maybe because they were related as well.  But reading the quote above has given me another theory as to why William and Maria Pemberton weren't married: because William was having children with other women/he was married to someone else! Which, of course, was not uncommon, (especially in my tree )

I am assuming that the Arthur Dutton baptism in the quote above showed the parents to be unmarried to each other as well?

never give up, does the baptism for this Arthur Dutton show a father's occupation?  And have you found any more out about this Arthur since 2010 when you started this thread?  I don't know whether you found your 'suspect number one' to be the right one for your tree though so you may have moved away from this Arthur.

If you have read up to this point, thank you and well done !  If you think you have a link to this family, contact me!

I look forward to any replies!  If you understand what I'm trying to say...!

ATGoldsmith

[ATGoldsmith]

Hello again,

Thanks for the message never give up

I have just had a possible breakthrough regarding William Pemberton the Farmer - the father of the three illegitimate children of Maria Pemberton. 

I was looking through the electoral rolls - as I new from the baptisms of the illegitimate children that William Pemberton lived in Chowley, Cheshire in 1865 and 1868 and he lived in Clotton in 1871.  The residence in 1871 is useful as this is the year the census was done.  On the electoral rolls I found a William in Chowley from about 1862-1864 and in Clotton from about 1871-1876 - which seems to fit with the baptism records.  This gave me the idea to look up deaths/burials for William.  I found a Willam Pemberton buried in 1884 in Hargrave which also gave an estimated birth year of 1827.  This may be the William that fathered the three illegitimate children, but it's not important to the point I am trying to explain. But it did give me the idea to look at the censuses for a William Pemberton born 1827 +/- 5 years, (as I know sometimes they had no idea how old the deceased was!)  I first looked at the 1881 to try and find the guy who was buried in 1884 to see whether I can link the census record to the burial record.  I found a few but there wasn't enough evidence to give me a definitive answer yet.  Therefore, I looked at the 1871 Census - remembering that, according to the baptism of his child, he was living in Clotton.  The attached picture was 1 of 2 William Pembertons in that age range in Cheshire...

It shows an unmarried, 40 year old, Farmer - William Pemberton!  He is living with only his sister and a few Servants/Labourers on his farm.  I then thought that Maria might have been a servant and had a few affairs with the Head of the household which was not uncommon!  However, Maria was, for most of her life that I have found, a Dressmaker.  But this doesn't rule anything out - and I reckon this William Pemberton is our guy.

The mystery is closer to being solved...

ATGoldsmith