Author Topic: Oliver family of East London  (Read 10301 times)

Offline Valda

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Re: Oliver family of East London
« Reply #9 on: Monday 13 December 10 20:54 GMT (UK) »
Hi

You give these dates for Charles Oliver 1786 - 1850

on the 1841 census he states not born Middlesex and that he was a carpenter by trade (which is consistent with the information on his children's baptisms). If there was an earlier bell hanging/foundry tradition in the family could it have come through Maria's family who it seems likely did have a midlands connection?
Why do you think this Charles Oliver died in 1850? There isn't a death registered in London for a Charles Oliver in that year.
The 1841 census rounds down adult ages to the nearest 5. Charles gives his age on that census as 55 which could be anywhere therefore between 55-59.


Regards

Valda
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

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Offline rocala

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Re: Oliver family of East London
« Reply #10 on: Tuesday 21 December 10 12:21 GMT (UK) »
Hi Valda

Many sites concerned with Churches and Bell ringing mention Charles and Charles senior as bell hangers. From what I can find out about the work it involved a lot of carpentry skills, I suspect he was involved in both trades.

I ascertained Charles age from his baptism record in a copy of the Leatherhead PR's at the SOG.

Charles death took place in Wales. I presume he was there working. I gained the info from a bell ringing internet site, and it corresponded with a record on Free BMD.

The name Brelsford does seem to originate in the midlands. I have no other info on this family and would love to know how they and the Olivers ended up in Leatherhead.

Bob

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Offline Valda

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Re: Oliver family of East London
« Reply #11 on: Tuesday 21 December 10 14:48 GMT (UK) »
Hi

Bell hanging I could see would go with carpentry skills but foundry working would be a very different set of skills. If he was baptised in Leatherhead Surrey (1786) like his wife, then the bell foundry making in London seems to be a trade he started later, more towards the middle of the C19th.
The Dockland Ringers state some of his later work was as a founder -  so perhaps that was with his second son George since there seems an overlap with him and the bells at St Clements and which of them actually cast them.

http://www.docklandsringers.co.uk/?page_id=350


Who were Charles' senior's parents?


So this death registration for him

Deaths Dec 1850   OLIVER  Charles     Swansea  26 367


I asked because there was a Prerogative Court of Canterbury will for a Charles Oliver in 1850, a carpenter with no corresponding death registration (or an easily spotted burial) but the place given is Brighton?

Will of Charles Oliver, Carpenter of Brighton , Sussex 07 January 1850 PROB 11/2106


Regards

Valda
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline rocala

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Re: Oliver family of East London
« Reply #12 on: Tuesday 21 December 10 15:25 GMT (UK) »
Hi Valda

Mentioned in the Docklands Ringers site is the fact that Charles jun was actually employed by Mr Mears. I wonder if that is why he used the job title "Church Bell Hanger" as opposed to his father's "Carpenter".

I suspect that Charles sen was originally trained as a Carpenter and then through family connections became more specialised.

I made a slip up earlier, the baptism referred to was for Charles jun. I have no idea about Charles seniors parents. I have been unable to find a baptism or other traces in Leatherhead or elsewhere.

I know nothing about Leatherhead or it's history, but I have considered the possibility that there was some large scale building work in the area, that brought families such as the Olivers and Brelsfords from far and wide?

Offline Valda

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Re: Oliver family of East London
« Reply #13 on: Tuesday 21 December 10 16:30 GMT (UK) »
Hi

No not really as far as Leatherhead is concerned. Any expansion came with the railways in the late 1850s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leatherhead


How do you know Charles was born circa 1786? Is this date based on the 1841 census or on Charles' age on his death certificate or burial? If you have the certificate what occupation is given on his death?

'The 1841 census rounds down adult ages to the nearest 5. Charles gives his age on that census as 55 which could be anywhere therefore between 55-59.'


Any specialism by Charles senior in later years with the actual making of bells, if correct, may have come through a partnership with his son George who certainly states on the 1841 census he was a founder. On all the records Charles senior consistently states carpenter.

e.g.

24th October 1824 St Matthew Bethnal Green born 30th September
Jane Louisa Oliver  parents Charles and Maria, Tent Street, father's occupation carpenter


From the St Clement Danes bell ringing website

'1843 George Oliver, who worked at the Whitechapel Foundry recast the third at his small workshop in Bethnal Green using a mould borrowed from the Whitechapel Foundry
1844 At his workshop, George Oliver cast two Trebles to make a ring of 10.
'

Dockland Ringers

'Charles Oliver sen. did work as a founder on his own account. In 1843 he recast the third bell of the ring of eight hells then in the tower of St. Clement Danes......The next year he supplied two smaller bells to augment the ring at St. Clement Danes to one of ten bells. It has been suggested that Oliver borrowed the strickles and other tools from the Whitechapel foundry.'

Perhaps there is a confusion here between father and son with George the Oliver who was in the bell foundry trade? To become more specialised in the carpentry trade you would expect something like furniture maker for instance. Learning to be a skilled bell maker would be a specialism learnt from the foundry trade, a skill acquired over years (having said that Charles junior who was a church bell hanger in 1851 was a clockmaker in 1861 - but perhaps specialising in the clock cases as he became to old to do the more physical work of bell hanging?)
The Dockland ringers make no mention of George Oliver the other son.

Their website also state Charles senior cast and hung the bell for Stowland Suffolk in 1843. However from a website on a short history of that church it states

'We enter by the west doorway into the tower-porch, from which a staircase ascends to the west gallery. A further ladder gives access to the bell, which was cast by Thomas Mears at the Whitechapel bell Foundry in 1843 and installed in the church by C & J Oliver of Wapping.'

Charles and Charles junior doing the bell hanging.


Information on the 1845 bell at Carshalton which is the other bell the Dockland Ringers give as evidence for Charles senior casting bells, seems more contradictory. It would be interesting to see whether it is a G or C on the bell of that church with a similar confusion developing because it was definitely the two Charles Olivers who installed the bell?


Regards

Valda
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Offline hoolianama0508

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Re: Oliver family of East London
« Reply #14 on: Saturday 15 January 11 19:00 GMT (UK) »

I am descended from William Thomas Oliver 1842 - 1907, son of Charles b.1809 son of Charles 1786 - 1850.
All three are to be found in various censuses. There is also some limited information on some websites concerned with churches and/or bell ringing.

By any chance did William Thomas have a son named George Edward Oliver? George married Annie Isabella Earwaker (b 1870),  sister to my great-grandmother's Rose Earwaker. Their son Charles Oliver married Rose's daughter Emily May Gascoine.

If not, then its just a coincidence. I do not have much information on the Oliver family to offer at the moment, but I might be able to gather some more information.
Agard, Cook, Earwaker, Garbitt, Gascoine, Greaves, Griffith, Stephenson,

Offline Valda

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Re: Oliver family of East London
« Reply #15 on: Sunday 16 January 11 10:40 GMT (UK) »
Hi

2nd August 1891 St Mark, Myddelton Square
George Edward Oliver 26 Widower Silversmith 51 Bakon Street  William Oliver Watch case maker
Annie Isabel Earwaker 21 Spinster 51 Bakon Street Theophilus Earwaker Cooper
Both signed
Witnesses Theophilus and Rose Earwaker and Ada Orphim?

2nd August 1885 St Paul, Clerkenwell
George Edward Oliver 25 Bachelor Springer & Polisher Gordon St? William Oliver Watch case polisher
Amelia Esther Spegg Thompson 24 Spinster Gordon St? James Thompson Artificial florist
Both signed
Witnesses William Richard Oliver and Rose Thompson

1901 census RG13 193 folio 30
8 Islington Green Islington London
George Oliver 40 Head Married Electro Plater Coventry Warwickshire
Annie Oliver 30 Wife Married London
Edwin Oliver 10 Son London
Emily Oliver 7 Daughter Southampton Hampshire
William Oliver 5 Son Southampton Hampshire

1881 census RG11 248 folio 104
Pentonville Prison Islington, London
George Oliver  20 Unmarried Convicted Felon Coventry, Warwickshire

Trial was at the Old Bailey
http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=def3-310-18810228&div=t18810228-310#highlight
previous connection was 4 months for larcency and receiving which stated there was a previous conviction to that

1871 census RG10 447 folio 36
18 Nagle Street Shoreditch Middlesex
William Oliver 54 Head Married Builders Clerk Clerkenwell Middlesex
Sophia Oliver 45 Wife Married Bow Middlesex
Charles H Oliver 16 Son Tailor Apprentice Coventry Warwickshire
Clara Oliver 14 Daughter  Coventry Warwickshire
George E Oliver 10 Son Coventry Warwickshire
Edwin Oliver 8 Son Coventry Warwickshire
Edgar Oliver 6 Son Coventry Warwickshire
Frederic Oliver 4 Son Coventry Warwickshire

1881 census RG11 358 folio 5
22 1/2 Smith Street Clerkenwell Middlesex
William Oliver 64 Head Married Watch case springer & polisher Clerkenwell Middlesex
Sophia Oliver 56 Wife Married Bow Middlesex
Clara Oliver 24 Daughter Machinist Coventry Warwickshire
Edgar Oliver 16 Son Watch case springer & polisher Coventry Warwickshire
Frederick Oliver 13 Son Errand Boy Coventry Warwickshire
Clara Oliver 5 Grandchild? St Luke Middlesex


Regards

Valda
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Offline rocala

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Re: Oliver family of East London
« Reply #16 on: Thursday 20 January 11 18:32 GMT (UK) »
Hi

I have not so far come across anybody of this name.

Offline hoolianama0508

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Re: Oliver family of East London
« Reply #17 on: Monday 24 January 11 00:34 GMT (UK) »
Witnesses Theophilus and Rose Earwaker and Ada Orphim?

Valda,

Thanks for the information. I can confirm that the second witness was Ada Orphin, who is the sister-in-law of Rose Earwaker. Theophilus Earwaker was Rose and Annie's father. 

I appreciate the information since it also lists the address at the time of the couple. Much thanks.
Agard, Cook, Earwaker, Garbitt, Gascoine, Greaves, Griffith, Stephenson,