Lady Ann of Clontarf?

[shanew147]

....
That street is shown in the Dublin 1848 map (that you've listed?) http://roots.swilson.info/dublin1848/ThomsDublin1848.html

Plus, perusing that same Directory page,  (pg. 2) under "Fairview Avenue" there is a James Burke, Barrister.  Wonder if that is Jessie's future (in two years) husband?  In the marriage record JB's occupation was listed as "Gentleman".  Would this discrepancy rule out this possibility?

Could you please explain how this directory should be read?  Are all three pages Clontarf? 

Do all the bold centered headings denote streets in Clontarf? 

For instance, on page 2, there is a bold heading "Dollymount", and centered below is "P. of Clontarf.---Coolock B." 

Then there is "Foster-Place", with "Ballybough-road" centered below, followed by "P. St. George".

Are they simply 2 streets in Clontarf?  "P." stands for "Parish", I surmise.  What's "Coolock B."

What do these two listings mean?

Is there a guide to interpreting this directory?

Sorry to pester you, but if I'm to read this directory correctly, I gotta learn how.
....

no real guide to using these directories, but feel free to throw as many questions as you like about Thom's my way... they are sort of my speciality (or obsession!) ...

The details on the three pages I gave the links for are all roads or areas in Clontarf.

The first section of the listing is the centre of the village the bold wording in the following sections indicate a new street or area in the village.

The Coolock letters are B=Barony and P=Civil parish.. both of these are divisions of land. Going largest to smallest we have county, civil parish, barony and townland. Clontarf is a complex example as it is primarily a village but now a suburb of Dublin city. In the directory it's both a townland, and a civil parish. The civil parish of Clontarf also contains  Clontarf Sheds, Dollymount, Marino, Clontarf East & West etc

That 1848 map is one of mine...

I'll check for any more details on James Burke, Barrister - but I think his occupation would be recorded as barrister if this was him.


Shane

[shanew147]

Then there is "Foster-Place", with "Ballybough-road" centered below, followed by "P. St. George".

The centred italic wording sometimes listed show that the named street (in bold) is off the road listed in italics.

e.g. Foster Place is off Ballybough Rd, and in the Civil Parish of St. George.  This Civil parish covers areas in the suburbs and inside Dublin city.

by chance the example you picked is the street where some of my ancestors lived!


Shane

[shanew147]

.....
And on an entirely different note:  Since Jessie's father is an officer in the army, would anyone know of any particular resource (online military records, for instance) that might include his name?  Any resource that would shed light on his unit or simply the Army's presence in Clontarf?
.....

For army sources you would need to look toward London - as it was the British army at that time. Some army records are available on pay-websites - e.g. Ancestry, FindMyPast etc. It might be worth posting a query on the Armed Forces board here on RootsChat to see if anyone can suggest a possible line of research for this.

The problem with Jessie's father is that there's no proof he was actually in Dublin at the time - since he's not a witness at the marriage. Marriages usually took place in the brides parish, so Clontarf was likely the brides parish at the time of the marriage, but her family origin could be elsewhere.

Cant think of any barracks in that part of Co. Dublin at the moment.. most were in the city or to the south or west of the city.


Shane

[Joseph L. Oliver]

The problem with Jessie's father is that there's no proof he was actually in Dublin at the time - since he's not a witness at the marriage. Marriages usually took place in the brides parish, so Clontarf was likely the brides parish at the time of the marriage, but her family origin could be elsewhere.

Hmmm...  Regarding Jessie, if this is THE Jessie, she was born in Scotland, as was her father.

And regarding witnesses:  I had assumed that the witnesses would be friends (ie bridesmaid/Best man) of the couple.  Was it more normal for the fathers to witness, if they were present at the ceremony?

Edward Burke was the witness for James.  Perhaps it was Jame's brother?

Joe 

[shanew147]

no real rules as to who the witnesses might be be - often friends, or close family, but I have seen a father as a witness. In this case all we know is that Jessie's father was not a witness - if he was then it least it would prove he was alive and in Clontarf at the time.

I checked the index for Thom's 1848 but dont see anything promising for James Francis Burke.

  James Burke, 14 Gardiner St Upr - barrister (Dublin City)
  James Burke esq., Wiliamstown (south county Dublin)
  James Burke, 6 & 7 Kevin St Lwr  - pawnbroker (Dublin City)
 
and for his father John Burke :

  Mr. John Burke, 16 Summer St N.
  John Lardner Burke, LL.D. T.C.D., 3 Nrth Gt. George's St - master of the Bective house seminary
  John Hogan Burke esq., 12 Kildare St

All addresses are Dublin City.
There are a few others with trades that dont seem to fit for a gentleman - e.g. merchants, auctioneer, grocer, clerk & coach builder etc

A 'gentleman'  would normally be listed with a Mr. or Esq. (Esquire) and often without an particular trade or business.


Shane

[shanew147]

I was just checking that 2nd marriage record you mentioned, and see an extra detail that might have some relevence ..

  Marriage Record 2

This record looks like a parish record in the older format, the other record mentioned earlier is in the format used for Civil registration.

Part of the details included on the form has : "...were married in this church by licence with consent of Guardians". The other marriage on the same page is by "..licence with consent of parents".


Shane

[MonicaL]

Guys, I have to admit I have obsessed about James Francis and Jessie since this query started on the Scottish boards 

I have looked at amongst other things:

• google books archives and newpapers
• UK 19th Century Newspapers

Anything and everything really to see any mention of particularly the Burke family. Got a little bit excited about a Sir John Burke Snr in the right age group to potentially be father to James, who together with his son, also John Burke went on to create the massive genealogy archive and works that are now Burke's Peerage records....but no, no son James Francis in the family.

I have also tried hard to find any records of substance in the US for James and Jessie. Specially for Jessie, without knowing her mother's name, it will be hard to find records of substance for her birth in Scotland and from this her family. Her father John (and what a common name John Sutherland is in Scotland unfortunately), could have travelled all over the world for all we know in his role as Army Captain.

What I have also been banging my head on this morning is trying once again to find any records in the US for James and Jessie. Apart from an 1880 census entry for them with daughter Alice in Cincinnati, Ohio, cannot see anything for them in 1860 and 1870. With the blip of the 1890 census, they may have been deceased by the time of the 1900 census. What was James' occupation in the US? His entry in 1880 is a bit meaningless with simply 'collector'.

Joe, have you been able to do local searches for death certificates, wills, death notices and obituaries etc.? Anything really that would add to info on parents' names for James and Jessie.

I'll stop obsessing now and get me to bed 

Monica

[Joseph L. Oliver]

I hate to sound ungrateful, but... This is absolutely ridiculous!  How do I even begin to address all the things you are finding and asking?

Shane!!!!

Monica!!!

You folks are absolutely Kah-ray-zeeeeeee!!!!

(I hope you know that's offered up in the nicest way.)

Blimey, anyone could understand ME being obsessed, being related to these ancestors.  What's YOUR guy's/gal's excuse?

My interests aside, with all your efforts, I just hope that this leads somewhere productive.  And, this is the right Jessie and James, right?  

Shane, yes, the "guardian" thing.  I was wondering about that.  And what is the significance of the phrase "by license with consent of xxx".  Who all, exactly, does this phrase refer to?  In Cincinnati, I have corresponded often with a Dioceses archivist who knows all the Latin, German, and English lingo of the records.  Perhaps I should start up a dialogue with a similar expert on Irish turf.

And thanks for doing all of that searching.  It would take me years...  Incredible... So very interesting.  I can't thank you enough.

Now for Monica.  I was wondering about you today.  Had no idea the trouble you were up to.

In answer to your question about US info on Jessie and James:  yes, I have scoured all the US Census records for their names, but like you find very little there.  Mostly I have traced them through digitized Cincinnati directories.  (Luckily for me James F. was proud of his middle name, because there are LOTS of J./Jas./James Burkes scattered around Cincy.)

James F. was a ticket collector for one of Cincinnati's "inclined" railroad lines (basically a tram).  He also installed lightning rods.

1855 is the first year I’ve found a record of James’s presence in Cincinnati: a church baptism record for their first daughter Mary on October 7th.  It also reveals Jessie’s maiden name of Sutherland.

I've searched some of the Cincy directories between 1849 and 1900.  1876, so far, is the first year I see "James F. Burke" in the Cincy directory.  1892 is the last year that name is listed.  Jessie Burke is not shown:  women in a household usually aren't unless they have a trade. 

In Cincy there is an 1882 record of a "James F. Burke" seeking naturalization, who indicates that he departed from Dublin and arrived in Philadelphia, and sadly, no, he does not indicate when that voyage happened.
 
Have no records of his and Jessie's deaths, but since I've only recently gotten the critical address info needed to query the Archdiocese of Cincinnati via snail mail, I have yet to do so.  Have searched online for wills, with no results.  I am dying to spend a week in Cincinnati to research non-digital records.  5 hours away – what’s my excuse? 

The 1880 US Census shows that James F. Burke was born in Dublin.  His father and mother were also born in Ireland.   Jesse was born in Scotland, as were her father and mother.  I found Jessie's maiden name "Sutherland" in the birth records of her children.

Oh, here's an item that puzzles me:  James Francis Burke and Jessie Sophia Sutherland were married in a Protestant church in Ireland.  Yet the Cincinnati birth records for their children are from a Catholic church.  Does this raise a red flag for our J&J of Dublin??  Forget I ever brought that up.

It's Midnight...  I'm shot. 

Goodnight...

Thank you.  This is very fun.

Joe

[Joseph L. Oliver]

It's been quiet, suddenly.  Perhaps my goofiness was out of line in my last message.  If I offended anyone, I apologize.

Joe O