Author Topic: Lady Ann of Clontarf?  (Read 76253 times)

Offline Joseph L. Oliver

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Re: Lady Ann of Clontarf?
« Reply #234 on: Tuesday 21 October 14 16:23 BST (UK) »
Hello Malky:

I appreciate your interest in this thread.  Unfortunately, I have no answer to your question.  Can you tell give me some context around the content of your question?

Regards,

Joe

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Offline Purpeller

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Re: Lady Ann of Clontarf?
« Reply #235 on: Monday 06 April 15 23:26 BST (UK) »
Having just read the entire thread (which I posted in a long time ago), a couple of points occur, which I hope isn't repeating a point, but since I am basically fresh eyes, I thought it was worth mentioning.

You've all spent a lot of time and effort working on various plausible options and discounting those that aren't.

However, getting the ring assayed and the portraits assessed properly is crucial to pinning part of this story down.  For example, you are taking the family lore at face value and, without any malicious intent, that story could easily have changed over time.  Two of the silhouettes look to be from a different time period from the other more detailed one the with the ruffle.  An art expert will be able to put a date on all three, and may even be able to identify an artist/place of origin, which could corroborate (or refute) one of the theories.

One further point on the use of a first name with "Lady" - it's very unlikely that anyone whose title is Countess/Viscountess/Marchioness would be referred to as "Lady Ann".  Any of those titles in spoken form is always Lady + title, e.g. Lady Meath (a countess), Lady Waterford (a marchioness).  The wife of a knight or baron or baronet would also be Lady + title, e.g. Lady Rathdonnell.  After her husband died, especially if she had a married son, she would be known as Mary, Lady Rathdonnell, but still referred to as Lady Rathdonnell in person.

Nowadays someone might incorrectly refer to any of these titled people as Lady Ann but in the past, there was better knowledge of forms of address.  I still think you're more likely looking at a daughter who has a courtesy title.  Incidentally, in that case, she would retain the Lady part of it and change surname if she were to marry, unless her husband had a better title than that of her father. 
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Online MonicaL

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Re: Lady Ann of Clontarf?
« Reply #236 on: Monday 13 April 15 22:03 BST (UK) »
I have loved this story  :)

Hope something new pops up over time...

Monica
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Offline despair

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Re: Lady Ann of Clontarf?
« Reply #237 on: Monday 13 April 15 22:49 BST (UK) »
I haven't given up,but am stuck in a rut of my own making.

Regards
Roger


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Re: Lady Ann of Clontarf?
« Reply #238 on: Monday 13 April 15 23:05 BST (UK) »
Ahhh, Roger...know what you mean  :-\ Often happens with these lovely long drawn out sagas doesn't it.

Monica
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Offline despair

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Re: Lady Ann of Clontarf?
« Reply #239 on: Thursday 23 April 15 21:36 BST (UK) »
Just a couple of points from the rut.

1.Denis Daly,the father of Catherine(sometimes Katherine),wife of John Sutherland,was also in the Galway Militia

http://www.mocavo.co.uk/A-Genealogical-and-Heraldic-History-of-the-Colonial-Gentry-Volume-2-3/851577/112

This in itself is perhaps no surprise,and doesn't mean that they are relevant.

2.More importantly,the previous analysis leading to the Gores was based on Denis's family.The family tradition was passage through the first born daughter,so shouldn't we be tracing through Denis's wife? So far,I can't trace her.

Regards
Roger

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Re: Lady Ann of Clontarf?
« Reply #240 on: Friday 24 April 15 08:11 BST (UK) »
I've found a baptismal record for Den(n) is Daly,April 1767,in which his mother,wife of Michael Daly, is given as Lady Ann Daly.I think this can only increase the likelihood that she is the lady of the portrait.

Regards
Roger

Offline despair

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Re: Lady Ann of Clontarf?
« Reply #241 on: Tuesday 12 May 15 19:53 BST (UK) »
Yet again I've failed to reach a satisfactory conclusion
to the following speculation,but I think it has enough merit
to present it in the hope that somebody can make more of it.

I started by looking at other data relating to Burkes at Clontarf
at www.irishgenealogy.ie,around the 1850 marriage,in the faint
hope that they might be related.

The first record(Nov 1843) is for the burial of Walter Burke
,given as of Deansfield(sic)Clontarf.The address is actually
Danesfield,and not,I think,to be confused with Danesfield
in Galway,though there may be a Co.Galway connection.

This Walter only born in August,was the son of another
Walter Burke,who married Elizabeth,daughter of John
Campbell,a merchant from Clonmel,who was the occupier
of  the Dublin Danesfield.

I think he is the Walter Burke listed in Shaw's 1850 directory
as of 93 Abbey Street and 10 Nelson Street,merchant and
foundry coke manufactory.
Throughout the early 1800s there are a number of Burke
(merchant) entries in Abbey Street.I can also find reference
to  Walter Burke,being of Templeogue House,the same
address given for Francis Burke in Shaw's 1850.
Slightly surprisingly,I believe this Francis died(possibly
suicide) in Galway in 1849,but he also has  listings at 57 Abbey
Street Dublin in relation to a company called Burke and Dixon
 and Dumbarton Crown Glass(he is also described as a wine merchant
and has a number of bankruptcy references).
It is James Dixon,son of William,below,who appears to be Francis' partner.
This latter company has it's roots in Dumbarton,Scotland with
William Dixon(married to Margaret Swan),the patriarch.There is  considerable
relationship between these two families,perhaps the start being the
record of the marriage of John Walter Burke of Galway to Helen Dixon,
(daughter of William,born 1782,Dumbarton),at Rutherglen in 1804.
There is also the possibility that Francis married
another daughter,Margaret(born 1787) and amongst other siblings
he has a son called James born in 1829 in Rathfarnham.This doesn't
qualify him,of course,and there is some data from the tree of a David Burke
that he may be a James Louis Burke.What I cannot find is what
happened to John Walter Burke and Helen-could they have had a son
called John who was the father of James Francis?Could he,or a son
be the John Burke,merchant of 45 Abbey Street?
Further,in the 1862 Dublin Directory,sandwiched between two refs.
to Walter Burke at 91 and 93 is a company called Ross and Murray
(who also have a branch in Ballinasloe).The patriarch of the Ross family
is William,reputed to have married a Miss Murray,but whether a Jane or not
I don't know.There is a  record for the death of a Jane Ross in Dalkey
in 1863,given as wife of William Ross Esq.,and William's sons both have
addresses in Dalkey at some point,but I can't positively link her to them.

Just to add to the general confusion and frustration there are
records for Burkes(including a Walter) in the woollen trade in Chamber
Street(and a  record in Shaw's 1850 for a Jane Ross in Chamber Street!)

This is all a bit rambling without linked references,but I felt the need to get
the core of the speculation outlined.

Regards
Roger

Offline Joseph L. Oliver

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Re: Lady Ann of Clontarf?
« Reply #242 on: Tuesday 01 December 15 05:39 GMT (UK) »
Hi Roger et al:

It has been a very long time since I've been able to peek into all this.  I'm sorry that I haven't been able to honor your continued effort with my own. 

Will try to nudge my cousin into having the portrait and ring looked at.

Best wishes to you all over the holidays.
Burke, Sutherland, Curtis, Cuter, Koplik