Author Topic: Bron y Foel Hall Llandwrog, was it a hall, can't find any info  (Read 18006 times)

Offline Rol

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Re: Bron y Foel Hall Llandwrog, was it a hall, can't find any info
« Reply #18 on: Monday 03 January 11 21:11 GMT (UK) »


... Bryn Peris (walked past it today) ... Glanrhyd Terrace (visited today) ...
Ah-Ha.  Really good to know we have A Man On The Spot! ;)

That is an excellent batch of info,  Emyr.  And,  looking forwards,  it is encouraging to hear that
Elderly lady, originally from Y Fron, is familiar with the name Bron y Foel Hall, but new it as Plas ... [H]er brother in law [is] going to have another word with her re. the place.

It should be shown on the Tithe Map/Schedule; I'll check that at Caernarfon Archives Office tomorrow.  ... If I have time I'll also have a look at the Parish Records and monument inscriptions for Llandwrog.

And well done for this lateral thinking:
1841  Llanwnda/22/1    Tan y Cefn(?)
Robert Jones (30+)  Catherine (25+)   Robert (4)   Elizabeth (1)

1851    Llandwrog/3c/1   Wood Cottage
Robert Jones -Llanllyfni (43)  Catherine - Conway (39)   Robert (13)  Elizabeth (11)  Gwen (5)   Also a niece aged 10 -Mary Charleson

1861  Llandwrog/15/2  Cottage Wood
Robert/Catherine - as above

other entry for Cottage Wood
David Jones/Elizabeth + daughter Catherine aged 2

So I assume that David Jones (Slate Quarry Agent) is the son in law of Robert/Catherine.

And this certainly helps back up the Plas Coll[e]y theory:
In 1901 two entries for Plas Colly(Colli) - William Griffith and family in one, and John Griffith/Ellen/Richard(12) + 4 children under 10 in the other.
Plas Colly does not appear in previous Censuses, so it appears Bronyfoel has been renamed Plas Colly (now Colli), and that the second Plas Colly is the current Plas Llywelyn.

It will be fascinating to hear the results of your continuing research on all this.


Rol


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Offline litherland lass

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Re: Bron y Foel Hall Llandwrog, was it a hall, can't find any info
« Reply #19 on: Thursday 06 January 11 20:34 GMT (UK) »
Hi Tree Lover,
I am tracing my family tree and have a copy of my grand father's birth certificate.
It states that he was born on 20.12.1886 at No 1 Bron Y Foel Terrace Llandwrog.
From enquiries I made today I am told that this property is in Upper Llandwrog.
it is possible that it was owned the quarry. My Great Grand father was a quarry labourer according to my grand father's birth certificate. I note from other comments that the property has changed names to Plas Colli. I would like to know if the property still exists as I would love to visit.
Likewise from the 1891 census, I have a record that my grand father's family moved to No 1 Ceasarea Terrace in the village of Ceasarea in the parish of Llandwrog. It could now be spelt Cesarea. I would also like to know if this property still exists.
I am hoping to visit this part of North Wales later this year, so if anyone has any info that might be of use please contact me.
Litherland Lass

Offline EmyrBorth

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Re: Bron y Foel Hall Llandwrog, was it a hall, can't find any info
« Reply #20 on: Thursday 06 January 11 22:15 GMT (UK) »
Hi Litherland Lass,
Bron y Foel Terrace still exists. If you 'google' it you'll find that one of the houses is advertised for sale on an estate agent's website. Llandwrog is the parish, and it stretches from the sea near the western end of the Menai Straits up to Mynydd Mawr. It's often split to Lower and Upper Llandwrog. If you're using Ancestry to look up Census records you'll find Y Fron under Llandwrog in all but one Census years, when it's under Upper and Lower Llandwrog. The Royal Mail uses, or at least did, use the name Upper Llandwrog for one particular part of Upper Llandwrog. There is a further complication, in that Y Fron has been known as Ceserea. I noticed this week that in the Archives Office at Caernarfon, in the general card index, it comes under that name. I think Ceserea Terrace still exists, and that it's opposite Bron y Foel Terrace - I'll check that out. I was hoping that the Tithe records would settle the matter regarding whether or not Bron y Foel Hall and Plas Colli are one and the same, but unfortunately, although a dwelling is shown on the map where Plas Colli is, it does not name it, and neither name appears on the schedule. I'm still looking into this. Contact me if you need information re the area
Emyr

Offline Rol

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Re: Bron y Foel Hall Llandwrog, was it a hall, can't find any info
« Reply #21 on: Thursday 06 January 11 22:48 GMT (UK) »


... I was hoping that the Tithe records would settle the matter regarding whether or not Bron y Foel Hall and Plas Colli are one and the same, but unfortunately, although a dwelling is shown on the map where Plas Colli is, it does not name it, and neither name appears on the schedule. I'm still looking into this.

Oh dear,  that is a disappointment . . .  but good luck with those ongoing enquiries,  Emyr;  and thanks very much for your help to us all in having gone to the trouble of looking.

BTW,  ref. this:
In 1901 two entries for Plas Colly(Colli) ... Plas Colly does not appear in previous Censuses ...

N.B. this:
The approximate equivalent of my 1851 list for the 1861 census is:

46.  Cilgwyn
47.  Penycae
48.  Bryntwrog
49.  [house name blank . . . so probably "Ditto"? (occ. by a slate quarry labourer)]
50.  Ysgoldy Bronyfoel [Ysgoldy = Eng. "schoolhouse"]
51.  Meillionydd
52.  Plas Colliu [or conceivably terminal letter n]
53.  Tan y Maes
54.  Tan y Chwarel
55.  Bryn Capel
56.  Llanerch
57.  Bryn rhedydd

(See RG9/4338 fo.8v p.10 to fo.9v p.12)

By 1881 many more terrace houses had been built,  reflecting the growth of the slate quarrying industry.  These included a "Bronyfoel Terrace".  I can see no "Bronyfoel Hall",  nor anything resembling "Plas Colley" ...

So local place-names do seem to have been going through quite an unstable phase.


Rol


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Offline big g

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Re: Bron y Foel Hall Llandwrog, was it a hall, can't find any info
« Reply #22 on: Monday 10 January 11 15:59 GMT (UK) »
I have found Bronyfoel Hall on 1911 , it comes immediately after Meillionydd where my  gt.aunt Kate and her husband Wm.Thomas Jones were living, and on the next page Meillionydd again, where my gt.nain Elizabeth Williams and her son Wm.Henry were living - two separate pages for Meillionydd ?
That's another query.

After Bronyfoel Hall is Bryn Hedydd, then Cesarea Terrace.

However...... on the list of dwellings at the front of the enumerators book, in the line where you would expect to read Bronyfoel Hall, it reads  PLAS COLI - Emyr take a bow !

The address on the transcript is shown  Plas Coli, on original Bronyfoel Hall.

Living at the Hall is Hugh Parry Jones aged 36, his wife Ann aged 34 and Richard Jno. Griffiths, aged 22, boarder.  The Hall had nine rooms !!!!


Williams - Llanllyfni Llandwrog Llanrug Bedd Austr.
Jones - Beddgelert/Nantlle
Parry - Llanllyfni
Owen s - Beddgelert
Pierce - Llanrug
Jarvis/Jervis - Llanrug
Roberts - Llanddeiniolen
Griffith  - Beddgellert/LLanrug


"This information is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk"

Corrin - I.o.M./Bootle/K'dale/Seaforth
Stewart - Durham L'pool
Whitford -I o M L'pool
Atkinson - Bootle K'dale
Crookham - Formby Crosby L'pool

Lloyd Dickinson Burgess Threlfall Tarbuck - Lancs

Offline EmyrBorth

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Re: Bron y Foel Hall Llandwrog, was it a hall, can't find any info
« Reply #23 on: Monday 10 January 11 23:25 GMT (UK) »
Hi,
Went to have another look round the area on Saturday. Previously I'd approached from the front and looked at the property from the garden gate, so looking at an angle from the right, so what was to the left of the property was hidden by large trees. Second time I approached from the back, along a footpath, so was the other side of the trees and within a few yards of the building. Plas Colli is attached to a large ruin, and possibly built on, or partly built, on part of a previous building site. So it would appear something happened to the original building, possibly a fire. The side walls of the ruin are low, but the gable end, including chimney stack is intact. There is a person who has written about the history of the area that I haven't yet contacted. Went to the Archives at Bangor University today, but failed to find anything about the history of the place. One possible interpretation of Plas Colli, is 'the Plas that was lost'. I've seen 3 different spellings for the place, Plas Colli/Colly/Colley.In 1838 there was, according to baptism records, a person surname 'Colling'  at Bron y Foel. Is it possible that the name should be Plas Colling, but that people continued to refer to the place by it's old name ? I've seen the names 'Collfryn' and 'Ty Gwyn Collfryn' on places in the area, but I don't yet know where they are. So another possible interpretation of the name is that it should be 'Plas Collfryn'.A couple of fields away is a property now known as 'Bryn Rhedyn'(Bracken Hill).In the Censuses it's 'Bryn Hedydd' and 'Bryn Ehedydd', and on the Tithe map/schedule 'Bron Ehedydd' and 'Bron 'r Hedydd'. 'Bryn' and 'Bron' mean basically the same in a place name, and both 'Hedydd' and 'Ehedydd' are used for 'Lark'.
The Tithe map shows a property where Bryn Colli is now, but does not name it; only a few properties are named. All the fields are numbered on the map, and are listed, with number and name, on the Schedule, together with the owner and occupier. The fields around were owned by, Sir John Kennaway, and occupied by, Sir John Kennaway and other partners of Cloddfa'r Lon Quarry Company. The fields are listed under a farm called Cae Goronwy.
The first school opened in Y Fron in 1861, and the Log Books going back to that date are kept at Caernarfon Archives. I've had a glance at the entries for the first few years. There is an entry dated 15/09/1865, "All the children were treated with Tea and Bara Brith, by Mr Ellis Williams, Meillionydd, and Mr David Jones Bron y Foel Hall, and also by Mr Jones from Fron Quarry, with books". There is another similar entry re Williams and Jones at a later date. On 12/11/1868 is the entry, "Miss Williams Meillionydd gave sewing lessons as mistress (Ellen Jones) was busy working mourning".
I've found following in Llandwrog Parish Registers relating to the David Jones family:
27/11/1858 Marriage  David Jones 25 Bachelor Quaryman Tyn Rhos (father - John Jones, labourer)
                              Elizabeth Jones 24 Spinster Wood Cottage (father- Robert Jones, labourer)

Baptisms
04/04/1859 Catherine, daughter of David/Elizabeth Jones Wood Cottage  Quarry Clerk
     do           Winifred        "          "            "                 "           "       "             "         "
So it appears Catherine was one of twins, but Winifred does not appear on 1861 Census. Did she die ?- can't find a burial - or was she brought up by somebody else?

06/10/1861  Robert David, son of David/Elizabeth Jones  Wood Cotage, Glynllifon Park  Quarry Steward

Burials
22/09/1869  Robert Joseph Jones   Bronyfoel Hall   3months

I need to check the Registers again as there are obvious gaps in the info above.
Emyr






Offline litherland lass

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Re: Bron y Foel Hall Llandwrog, was it a hall, can't find any info
« Reply #24 on: Tuesday 11 January 11 10:57 GMT (UK) »
Well done Emry. Where do you find all the time to do this research!

Offline EmyrBorth

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Re: Bron y Foel Hall Llandwrog, was it a hall, can't find any info
« Reply #25 on: Friday 14 January 11 19:06 GMT (UK) »
Hi
As I'd been searching for David Jones, rather than Bronyfoel Hall, I hadn't looked at the area in all Censuses, and as Rol has shown,  a version of the name Plas Colli does appear earlier than the date I gave. I've today bought a book published 2007, written by Dewi Tomos, 'Chwareli Dyffryn Nantlle' (Nantlle Valley Quarries - it's in Welsh), and I've spoken to the author. Bronyfoel Hall was built mid 1830's for John Collins, who was at the time Manager of Moel Tryfan Quarry, then owned by the owners of Cloddfa'r Lon, Kennaway & Co.; but the locals referred to the house as Plas Collins. Dewi's information about this period derives from a book by John Griffith, published 1889, 'Chwareli Dyffryn Nantlle a Chymdogaeth Moeltryfan'(Quarries of the Nantlle Valley and Moeltryfan Area). Collins, or Colling according to a baptism record in the Parish Baptism Register (and BMD) -(30/03/1838 Charles Frederick Colling, son of ---   Colling,  Bronyfoel,  Quarry Agent). I'll try to get hold of a copy of John Griffith's book. Collins didn't hold on to his job for long and was replaced by William Gullate in 1840. There was a change in ownership in 1853 and Ellis Williams became Manager, followed later by John Griffith, author of the second book mentioned.
BigG - I've now had a look at the 1911 Census. When you look at the copy of the form filled in by the occupier of what is recorded as Plas Colli, he has written Bronyfoel Hall as the name of the dwelling. Is this what your referring to ?
I've seen references to David Jones and the Meillionydd family, which I haven't recorded, but will return to them.
On checking on what I was going to say next I've realised that I was incorrect when I said that David/Elizabeth Jones' daughter Winifred was not on the 1961 Census, she is !  Catherine and Winifred would be 12 on 1871 Census, but only Catherine is shown at that age; but there is a Winifred A aged 6. So it suggests the first Winifred has died between the two Censuses and another daughter given the same name. There is a Parish Register record of a Gwen, aged 3, of Wood Cottage having died 24/04/1862. When I first saw this I wondered whether Gwen was the Welsh equivalent of Winifred. The equivalent is GWENffri, and according to my brother, a person we called Auntie Gwen (a close friend of the family rather than an actual aunt), was in fact called Winifred. So it appears that the twin Winifred did die, but post, rather than pre 1861, but recorded under the name Gwen. A similar thing seems to have happened in your family Litherland Lass. I'll post some information about your family tomorrow. Robert Roberts' wife is recorded as Winifred in 1881 and as Gwen in 1891.
Emyr     

Offline litherland lass

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Re: Bron y Foel Hall Llandwrog, was it a hall, can't find any info
« Reply #26 on: Friday 14 January 11 20:29 GMT (UK) »
Thanks EmyrBroth,
Can you also tell me if on the web site North walesbdm, I've noted some deaths of my grand father's siblings:
Benjamin Roberts died 1903 aged 21/22
Ellis Roberts died 1904 aged 25/26
David Roberts (there are 6 of them ) between 1901 to 1908 (aged between 17 to 25).
I am curious why 3 grow lads should die so young as in illness / accident?
Do you know where someone from Llandwrog is likely to be buried.
On previous checks for baptisms I can't find any of the 8 Roberts boys being baptised.
does the ref No on the north wales web site have any connection to the same family. what i mean by this is that the ref given for Benjamin is a similar ref for David.
Could you take a look at this site and give me your views, if you don't mind.
many thanks
Litherland Lass- Pauline