Bron y Foel Hall Llandwrog, was it a hall, can't find any info

[Rol]

Hello Joan,


Locating the precise position of "Bronyfoel Hall" on a map is proving quite a tough nut to crack.  For now I am just as stumped as everybody else.  Still,  EmyrBorth has helpfully narrowed the possibilities down to a relatively small area.  Success probably needs more detailed familiarity with the immediate area's history and documentary sources than most of us possess.  The word "Hall" could easily have been a new-minted addition that was abandoned/replaced soon after David Jones moved elsewhere.  Let us hope that one of Emyr's contacts will recognise the "Bronyfoel" part as an older name for a building that was subsequently re-named or demolished.

Ref. your broader enquiries as expressed here,

... Would love to know more about David Jones - looks like I'll have to keep digging ...

I'm doing my nephews tree.  He decends from David Davies Jones, son of David & Elizabeth, who married Mary Ann Lewis.

Don't suppose you happen to know Elizabeth's maiden name.  There are so many marriages ... have had no luck.  I can't afford to buy lots of certificates ...

-- OK,  I think I can at least provide the "more about David Jones" bit!

First,  although it is clear from your posts that you already know a good deal about the family (no doubt including several of their census entries besides the 1871 one specified in your initial message),  I thought that it might be useful to put up the census references for 1861 to 1891 in a single place,  so as to "illuminate the pitch" and provide a point of reference to assist others coming to this thread for the first time.  So . . .


1861

RG9/4337 fo.52v p.2

Wood Cottage
[N.B. Listed Building located on southern edge of The Rookery wood,  off the south approach drive to Glynllifon Park -- modern post code LL54 5EB.]

(Interesting that there was then a Winifred Mk.1 -- a twin of Catherine's who presumably did not survive.)


1871

RG10/5714 fo.10v p.12

Bronyfoel Hall
[Precise location to be determined]

(N.B. David Jones seems to be described as a farmer of 150 acres,  not 50 as stated in the opening post of this thread)


1881

RG11/5563 fo.84r p.9

"Wernoleu" [sp.?].


1891

RG12/4656 fo.32r p.9

Brynperis Terr[ace]


Of the foregoing census entries,  the one for 1881 lists the family most fully,  for the majority listing second forenames rather than just middle initials.  So it might be worth posting the details . . .

JONES,

David,  Head,  Mar.,  44,  Writing Slate Manufactor [?sic],  b. Llandwrog [Carnarvonshire]
Elizabeth,  Wife,  Mar.,  41,  Wife,  b. Llanwnda  Do.
Catherine,  Daur,  Unm.,  22,  Daughter,  [b.] Llandwrog  Do.
David D.,  Son,  Unm.,  17,  Scholar,  [b.] Do.  Do.
Winifred Alice,  Daur,  Unm.,  16,  Do.,  [b.] Do. Do.
Mary Ellen,  Daur,  Unm.,  13,  Do.,  [b.] Do. Do.
Hariet [sic] Emily,  Daur,  -  ,  11,  Do.,  [b.] Do. Do.
Arthur D.,  Son,  -  ,  8,  Do.,  [b.] Do. Do.
Ann Jane,  Daur,  -  ,  5,  Do.,  [b.] Do. Do.
Brutus Carodawg [?sic],  Son,  -  ,  3,  -  ,  [b.] Do. Do.

More in my next post.

[Rol]

Here are some thoughts on finding the marriage of David Jones and his wife Elizabeth -- although you may well have pursued the same path and already tried and failed with the one that looks like an initial frontrunner to me.

The censuses are fairly consistent in showing Elizabeth Jones's DoB as being ca. 1839-40 (mostly giving Llanwnda as her parish of birth).  If we assume that she had attained the age of at least 16 by the time she married,  the earliest possible wedding year would have been 1855.  The 1861 census shows her as a married woman with twin daughters aged two (so born 1858-59).  Assuming the children were born after the wedding,  that suggests a date range for the ceremony of 1855-59.

The couple could have gone off to Caernarfon or further afield to wed;  but if (like most people) they married locally,  it is to be noted that the North Wales BMD version of the local civil registration indexes shows only one marriage at Llandwrog or Llanwnda during the whole decade 1851-61 between a David Jones and an Elizabeth -- i.e. this one in 1858:

JONES David  JONES Elizabeth  Llandwrog, St Twrog  Gwynedd - Bangor  CAEC9/01/E250

The wedding concerned may have taken place in Q4,  as that is the only 1858 quarter for which FreeBMD shows a David Jones marrying on the same page as an Elizabeth Jones within the correct RD for Llandwrog:  Carnarvon, 11b 861.

                                         *          *          *          *          *

Now,  some late 19th c. info about the Joneses of a more miscellaneous sort.  MaxD has very usefully pointed us at the newspaper info available via the Gale database.  As he notes,  the main reason for David Jones's appearances in the local press seems to have been his involvement with the Bronyfoel board school -- latterly as chairman of the board.  The paragraph in Y Baner of 31 March 1877 records his resignation from that office.

This prefigured the family leaving Bronyfoel Hall,  because on 1 November 1877 Y Genedl Cymreig advertised the sale of "a portion" of the house's furniture and all the farm stock,  by auction to be held on 8 November.  This may well have been a sign of his prosperity at that time,  rather than the opposite -- i.e.,  he may have been moving out of a place where he had been renting as a tenant to premises which he was buying (albeit probably on mortgage,  if the hints from subsequent events provide reliable clues).

The 1881 census shows that the Joneses had moved to "Wernoleu" [not totally clear what sp. the enumerator intended] -- evidently the house NE of Groeslon now written as Wern Olau.  It is not marked on the modern 1:50,000 O.S. map (old 1") indexed online,  but is shown on the 1:25,000 (old 2½");  so the easiest way to find it on Streetmap (e.g.) is to search for Tryfan Hall as a place,  then magnify the result by one notch to reach the 1:25,000 map and look a little to the SW of Tryfan Hall.  (Note:  Groeslon itself is the settlement situated immediately to the east of Glynllifon Park.)

Final instalment follows below.

[Rol]

Business for writing slate makers must have been very good in the 1870s,  following Gladstone's Education Act and the introduction of compulsory elementary schooling.  But evidence from the time of David Jones's death suggests that his fortunes may later have declined.  The London Gazette of 29 January 1886 (p.476) tells us that "David Jones, late of Werndlew [sic], in the parish of Llandwrog, in the county of Carnarvon, Writing Slate Manufacturer ... died in or about the month of March, 1885".  The paragraph goes on to disclose the existence of a law suit at Carnarvon county court over the assets forming his estate,  and invites his creditors to put in their formal claims by 10 February 1886.

It rather looks as though he left them thin pickings to dispute.  This is David Jones's entry in the PPR calendar of wills and admons for 1885 (usefully stating his exact date and place of death):

JONES  David.
4 July.  The Will of David Jones late of Wern Ola Tryfan in the Parish of Llandwrog in the County of Carnarvon who died 6 March 1885 at Wern Ola was proved at Bangor by Elizabeth Jones of Wern Ola Widow the Relict the sole Executrix.
Personal Estate £95 10s.

It would probably be worth ordering a copy of this document.

Elizabeth and/or her late husband's creditors (perhaps including his landlords?) moved fairly promptly to dispose of the house and neighbouring property he occupied.  Caernarfon RO has this sale catalogue dated 17 October 1885 under their ref. XD2/14438 (and see here for the related continuation page -- though it adds little info).  The catalogue is one of a large number accumulated by the Glynllifon estate,  now part of the RO's Newborough Collection.  The reference to "the Llifon slate and wood works" suggests that it could well have been the place where latterly Jones had been assembling his wood-framed writing slates.

The substance of the above catalogue was reproduced in English and Welsh language advertisements in Y Genedl Cymreig,  including a detailed final one in English published by the auctioneer on p.4 (col.3) of the edition dated 14 October 1885.  The first notice of sale had appeared in Welsh on 22 July and gave Mrs Jones of Wernoleu as the only point of contact for interested parties.  The freeholds were being offered for sale,  so the implication is that she or her husband's estate were the owners;  but nowhere does that seem to be stated explicitly.  One is tempted to think that the litigation may have mainly concerned mortgages over the real estate rather than Jones's slender personal property.  The total land area offered for sale was only a little over 60 acres,  but quite a significant proportion was capable of earning urban rents;  some ground by the railway station at Groeslon was evidently ripe for development,  and aside from the two acres used for the slate works there were also two shops,  one tenanted and one unlet.  (If anyone wants to look up the details via the Gale database,  I brought up the items I saw by searching the Welsh papers for the single year 1885 using the [entire-document] search term Llifon slate.)

However the court case ended,  David Jones's widow and children seem to have been left in pretty reduced circumstances.  According to the 1891 census,  Elizabeth Jones,  widow,  51,  no occupation,  was living at Brynperris Terr[ace] and only two of her children remained with her -- Arthur D. (seaman) and Caradoc (slate quarryman),  the latter having evidently decided that  Brutus -- the first forename he sported ten years earlier -- was even more of a burden than his second name Caradoc!  The others had gone their separate ways.  (For example Har[r]iet Emily can be identified as a kitchen maid at Liscard in 1891,  and as a waitress at Caernarfon a decade on.)  I wonder whether it is yet known how the other children listed in that 1881 census entry ended up faring in life.


Rol

[MaxD]

Rol

Awesome!! I joined the thread because the prospect of doing some detective work, hopefully successfully, intrigued me.  I felt sure that more clues lay in the newspapers but, unlike you, was stymied by my ignorance of Welsh.  Congratulations!
MaxD

[Treelover]

Blimey Rol - I have jusy been totally blown away after reading your posts. WOW       

The information you have found is AMAZING and I am so very grateful for the time and effort you have put in to find so much.

Cannot beleive you have come up with it all in so little a time frame.

Many, many thanks for all you have done.

Joan 

[MaxD]

Rol

Did you perchance try to reproduce the enumerators route on a map of the time.  I tried looking at the description of the 1871 enumeration district (20) and comparing it with an old map but was again foxed by my lack of Welsh.  MaxD

[Rol]

Hi --  very glad you both enjoyed that,  and thanks for the kind words.

Satisfy my curiosity,  Joan.  Was the Q4 1858 marriage one of the index entries that you had already tried in vain?  Plus,  aside from your nephew's direct line to David Davies Jones,  I wonder whether you (or he) have uncovered any clues about the later fate of the other 1881 children.

Max -- with ref. to

Did you perchance try to reproduce the enumerators route on a map of the time ...

no,  I have not tried systematically;  but looking in a rough and ready way leads me to broadly the same conclusions as Emyr reached.

Incidentally,  in that context a couple of extra points do emerge from the 1841 and the 1851 censuses.  In both of them the names shown are plain Bronyfoel -- no "Hall".  And in 1851 two separate Bronyfoel households are listed:  first the one mentioned by Emyr (schedule 44) and then over the page a Catherine Hughes and family (schedule 48).

The 1889 1:2,500 O.S on the Old Maps site shows the name Plas Colley by the building over the road to the NE of Meillionydd that I had my eye on as a "Brynyfoel Hall" candidate.  A re-naming,  perhaps?  The modern 1:25,000 has that place marked but unlabelled.

The order of the houses in 1851 is:

42.  Cilgwyn
43.  Ff[rid]d lwud [??Ffridd Lwyd meant]
44.  Bronyfoel  [1]
45.  Brynrhudd
46.  Tyn y Maes
47.  Bryndwrog
48.  Bronyfoel  [2]
49.  Meillionydd
50.  Brynrhedydd
51.  Ty capel Cesaria

(See HO107/2515 fo.528v p.11 to fo.529v p.13)

If Emyr draws a blank with his local contact,  I would say the next standard move would be for someone within range -- sadly not me -- to have a look at the tithe map and schedule for us (copies at Caernarfon RO and the NLW,  or TNA).  Plus the NLW map collection could include something useful.


Rol



AMENDED, 5 Jan. 2011: -- "48.  Brynyfoel [2]" corrected to "48.  Bronyfoel [2]"

[Rol]

The order of the houses in 1851 is:

42.  Cilgwyn
43.  Ff[rid]d lwud [??Ffridd Lwyd meant]
44.  Bronyfoel  [1]
45.  Brynrhudd
46.  Tyn y Maes
47.  Bryndwrog
48.  Bronyfoel  [2]
49.  Meillionydd
50.  Brynrhedydd
51.  Ty capel Cesaria

(See HO107/2515 fo.528v p.11 to fo.529v p.13)

Had a look at the Censuses ... failed to find it in 1861 ...

The approximate equivalent of my 1851 list for the 1861 census is:

46.  Cilgwyn
47.  Penycae
48.  Bryntwrog
49.  [house name blank . . . so probably "Ditto"? (occ. by a slate quarry labourer)]
50.  Ysgoldy Bronyfoel [Ysgoldy = Eng. "schoolhouse"]
51.  Meillionydd
52.  Plas Colliu [or conceivably terminal letter n]
53.  Tan y Maes
54.  Tan y Chwarel
55.  Bryn Capel
56.  Llanerch
57.  Bryn rhedydd

(See RG9/4338 fo.8v p.10 to fo.9v p.12)

By 1881 many more terrace houses had been built,  reflecting the growth of the slate quarrying industry.  These included a "Bronyfoel Terrace".  I can see no "Bronyfoel Hall",  nor anything resembling "Plas Colley".  There is a "Bronyfoel",  sandwiched between Bryn rhedydd and four terrace houses named Bron Eryri;  but it is shown as unoccupied.  (See RG11/5564 fo.30v p.16.)


Rol

[EmyrBorth]

Hi
Elderly lady, originally from Y Fron, is familiar with the name Bron y Foel Hall, but new it as Plas. It is not the place I suspected it might be, but in same area, near Plas Llywelyn and Plas Colli. I'm not in direct contact with this person, but thro' her brother in law, and he's going to have another word with her re. the place. It should be shown on the Tithe Map/Schedule; I'll check that at Caernarfon Archives Office tomorrow.
I've been able to trace Census entries; Rol has already referred to most of it. I'll give the references in the form: Parish/District/page number - the county in all cases being Caernarvonshire.

1841  Llanwnda/22/1    Tan y Cefn(?)
Robert Jones (30+)  Catherine (25+)   Robert (4)   Elizabeth (1)

1851    Llandwrog/3c/1   Wood Cottage
Robert Jones -Llanllyfni (43)  Catherine - Conway (39)   Robert (13)  Elizabeth (11)  Gwen (5)   Also a niece aged 10 -Mary Charleson

1861  Llandwrog/15/2  Cottage Wood
Robert/Catherine - as above

other entry for Cottage Wood
David Jones/Elizabeth + daughter Catherine aged 2

So I assume that David Jones (Slate Quarry Agent) is the son in law of Robert/Catherine.

1871 Llandwrog/20/12  Bron y Foel Hall.

1881  Llandwrog/17/9  Wernoleu

1891 Llandwrog/17/9  Bryn Peris (walked past it today)
Elizabeth and children - no David

1901  Llanwnda/23/6  Glanrhyd Terrace (visited today)
Elizabeth + Annie(dau.) + Caradoc(son).

Bronyfoel  Uninhabited   1881, John Griffiths /Ellen(wife)/Richard(son-2yrs) there 1891.

In 1901 two entries for Plas Colly(Colli) - William Griffith and family in one, and John Griffith/Ellen/Richard(12) + 4 children under 10 in the other.
Plas Colly does not appear in previous Censuses, so it appears Bronyfoel has been renamed Plas Colly (now Colli), and that the second Plas Colly is the current Plas Llywelyn.

If I have time I'll also have a look at the Parish Records and monument inscriptions for Llandwrog.

Have checked above as Iwas typing, but not rechecked. I hope no errors have crept in.

Emyr
PS Another reply has been posted as I was typing above.