William Smith family 1796 - 1812

[Peedee]

Is there a census for St. Mary's, Lambeth, Surrey, between 1796 to 1813? My ancestors, William and wife Hannah (Woodman) Smith, were married at St. Mary's in 1796 and lived at #9 Cumberland Row, Kennington Green, Surrey. They had four sons, William 1797, Benjamin 1799, Joseph 1800, and Thomas 1802.  Hannah died July 16, 1802, two days before son Thomas was baptized.  In June of 1805 the eldest son, William, was admitted to Christ's Hospital (Blue Coat School) by his father.  When William Jr. was discharged in June 1812, his father William Sr. was listed as still living at # 9 Cumberland Row.  I hope to find whether William Sr. remarried and if the three younger sons remained with their father.  William Jr. is my 4x grandfather, he joined the Hudson's Bay Company and came to Rupert's Land (Canada) in 1813.  I have him well recorded, but would like to know more of what happened to his family in England.
Peedee
Alberta, Canada

[janan]

Hi

There is this marriage which could well be him as he had young children in need of looking after

St Mary Lambeth
William Smith Widower of this parish to Sarah Kieran Widow of the same parish on 12th Oct 1802 by banns Witnesses George Saxelling Mary Pearson all parties signed

Jan

[Peedee]

Wow...was that ever fast!  Yesterday I did find the marriage record that you mentioned.  I felt it was most likely my William Smith as a couple of years ago I located a Will that I was pretty sure was William's.  It was the last Will and Testament of William Smith of Cumberland Row, Kennington Green, County of Surrey.  In it he gives his wife's name as Sarah!  It must be them.  Hannah's death would have left him with sons aged 5, 3, 1 and newborn, so no wonder he married within three months.  In the Will only two sons are mention, hard to read but looks like William and Joseph...which would mean that Benjamin and Thomas had died??  I was hoping to find out if any of the other sons were sent to Christ's Hospital but find that their records have to be searched in person and I'm clear across the pond!  Thanks bunches for your interest and response.
Penny in Canada

[janan]

Hi Penny

The will does seem to suggest the marriage is the right one. I looked for the Benjamin and Thomas on censuses but didn't find definites but of course Smith is difficult! What date is the will? There are these burials which could be them but again Smith is the problem

Benjamin Smith 31 of Kennington Green buried Kennington St Mark Nov 28th 1829
Thomas Smith 18 of Kennington buried Lambeth St Mary Nov 19th 1820

Jan

[Valda]

Hi

Taken from the guide to censuses at the top of the Rootschat Surrey boards

'The first four censuses were essentially only head counts which named just the head of household.
The 1801 census provide information on the number of inhabited and uninhabited houses in the parish and how many families occupied them. A similar format was followed for the censuses of 1811, 1821 and 1831. In 1821 a question relating to age was asked and in 1831 a question on occupations.
Nationally none of these first four censuses survive but locally some census parish returns do survive and some, but not all, have been indexed.'

The surviving parts of thoses censuses where they survive

http://www.histpop.org/pre41/listings_a.pdf



The William Smith of Cumberland Row Kennington who died and left a Prerogative Court of Canterbury will in 1836 was a gentleman. To be a Gentleman would mean he didn't work but had independent means.

This record would indicate that he was a gentleman moving in circles with other gentlemen. Gentlemen of this sort did not mix with working class families. If he was insuring his property he had something worth insuring and could afford to insure it.
MS 11936/511/1061882  13 June 1827
Insured: William Smith 9 Cumberland Row Kennington Green gent and Sir William East


Christ's Hospital was however a charity school

http://oreald.com/chapter17.html




Regards

Valda

[Peedee]

I clicked reply but am not sure if I am repling to Jan or Valda or both!
Jan, the dates you located for Benjamin and Thomas seem to fit with their ages and birth dates.  Benjamin would have to be born in 1798 to be aged 31 in 1829...seeing that his baptism was in Jan. of 1799, he could very well have been born late 1798.  Thomas's date is right on.

Valda, the will I located for William Smith did say Gentleman of Cumberland Row, Kennington Green...I wasn't sure of what the term Gentleman meant.  I did locate the information about him being insured and was sure it was the correct William as I know he lived at #9 Cumberland Row.  That address is on the discharge record for his son William from Christ's Hospital.  A copy of the admission record shows William Sr. to be a Gardener  A letter from the Keeper of Manuscripts at the Guildhall Library in 1993, wrote that William Sr. was a Citizen and Paviour'.  Not sure what that meant and I don't see it on the admission copy.  In the will William gives his wife to be Sara and I did find a marriage record for William Smith, widower of Lambeth, to a widow Sara Kieran, Oct 1802.  Would being a Gardener make him a gentleman? Trying to trace his sons I located a Joseph who was also a gardener.  If William had to put a child in Christ's Hospital he wasn't a man who had independant means in 1805...maybe that came later.  Wish we had a time machine!  Thank you both for the help...
Penny in Canada

[janan]

Hi Penny

It is quite a jump from gardener to gentleman. I think William must have come into money later -  say when his father died?
Jan

[Peedee]

Wish I knew who his father was!

[Valda]

Hi

If he was a gardener then you wouldn't expect wealth in his family line (unless of course he was more like a landscape gardener but as yet there is no evidence of that)..

A citizen means a freeman of the City of London. He would have acquired that freeman status through the Paviors Company (probably through an apprenticeship).

http://www.paviors.org.uk/

Apprenticeship records are held at the Guildhall Library
Freemen records are held at the London Metropolitan Archives

http://217.154.230.218/NR/rdonlyres/23C47909-11A8-419D-8E1C-EE39C6FA7627/0/18ApprenticeshiprecordsVHMarch2010.pdf
http://217.154.230.218/NR/rdonlyres/3849DBCC-E0D4-4C1F-A26B-53055ABF67EB/0/14CITYFREEDOMARCHIVES.pdf

Origins holds some abstracts of the apprenticeship records

http://www.britishorigins.com/help/aboutbo-lonapps.aspx#sourcerecs


Regards

Valda