Author Topic: McGurns & Templetons- Where???  (Read 3092 times)

Offline Old Laughin Lady

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McGurns & Templetons- Where???
« on: Friday 15 April 05 17:24 BST (UK) »
Can anyone help out with my queries.
Have found my Scottish families, however all the info I have for my Irish roots is just ..Ireland.
I am looking for a Martin or Patrick McGurn who married a Margaret Campbell, I cannot find anything for them except their son Dennis was born in Glasgow around 1857, his parents are mentioned on his marriage certificate, this is where his fathers name is Martin with their place of marriage being Ireland !!
Dennis's death certificate states his fathers name was Patrick.
Both parents were deceased when he married in 1878.
I cannot trace Dennis's birth records on Scotlands People, and I suspect his parents died whilst he was quite young and he may have been brought up by another family member. There are no Dennis's until 1881 census.

On another branch of the tree I am looking for info on are Templetons. James Templeton married Elizabeth McCormick and their daughter Fanny Templeton was born around 1806 again all the census says place of birth is Ireland.

Any information would be appreciated.
McGurn, Morton, Main, Templeton

Offline Jean McGurn

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Re: McGurns & Templetons- Where???
« Reply #1 on: Friday 22 April 05 16:48 BST (UK) »
Hi

I am also researching the McGurn name. As it is so rare I think that back in the early 1800's most of thos who came over from Ireland are related somewhere along the line. So it's possible your branch could be connected to my branch.

My earliest ancestor is CHRISTOPHER McGURN b c1814 Leitrim married to MARY GORMLY.b c1820 Roscommon. Most of my branch landed in Liverpool and some stayed whilst some went to Canada and the USA.

Haven't yet been able to find and brothers or sisters for Christopher but it's possible there may have been the names John and Martyin. There was a MARTIN McGurn in Liverpool in the 1841 census. He was listed as an 'Oyster Catcher'

I see you are also researching MAIN. One of my branch married a John Smeaton Combe whose father was Robert COMB b 1834 Scotland married to MARY ROBETTSON in 1864. Robert's parents were DARCY MAIN married to ROBERT COMBE both from Scotland. Varients of the COMBE spelling are COOMBE and COMB.

Any help?
Jean







McGurn, Stables, Harris, Owens, Bellis, Stackhouse, Darwent, Co(o)mbe

Offline Old Laughin Lady

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Re: McGurns & Templetons- Where???
« Reply #2 on: Friday 22 April 05 20:22 BST (UK) »
Hi Jean

When I found this site 2 weeks ago, it was one of your messages that I came across, McGurns & Variants (I think) and you possibly posted it a few years ago, I posted a reply to you
there.

I have only recently started the search and so far all my McGurns have been in Scotland, traced back to 1850's and  I have hit that brick wall, although Capricorn has found me a birth extract that may give me another clue..I hope.

The only info I have on my GG Grandfather Dennis is that he was born in Glasgow around 1857 but I cant find his birth records, nor trace him in any census till 1881.
The confusing part is that his father is Martin on his marriage certificate and Patrick on his death certificate, mothers name Margaret Campbell remains the same on both documents.
Martin was a farm labourer.

I also found a death notice for Ellen McGurn who died in Glasgow aged 1yr 4 months, her parents are Martin & Margaret.
The death was registered by Martins brother Patrick.

So do I assume Martin died when Dennis was young and the family moved in with Patrick & his family.
No death records can be found for Martin or Margaret.

Capricorn informed me that there is a birth certificate for the above Ellen, so that may give me a clue about the parents and if they did ever marry. Scotlands People has been offline for a few days so I am itching to get in and view the records.

My McGurns all seem to take the same christian names down the generations, Dennis, John, Margaret, Mary, Isabella, William,  Ellen.  No mention of Christopher  yet !!but I think you are right I am sure they must all be related somewhere.
I dont know if any went to US or Canada although I know my fathers sisters both married canadians and lived there most of their lives.
Also another stumbling block is that children were raised by other members of the family, if parents died and its difficult to trace them.

As for the Mains, I have traced back to 1790 when my GGG Grandfather James Main was a shoemaker in Stranraer, he married Fanny Templeton (born in Ireland) and several years later they moved  to Kilmarnock.

Where in Scotland  does your "Main" connection come from?

I'd appreciate any advice or websites you can suggest I look at.


Maggie



McGurn, Morton, Main, Templeton

Offline Jean McGurn

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Re: McGurns & Templetons- Where???
« Reply #3 on: Saturday 23 April 05 07:13 BST (UK) »
Hi Maggie

Sorry I must have missed your first reply on the McGurn & Variants. I have posted so many requests all over the net some going back as far as 1998!. In those days I reckon I was the only McGurn but as time has gone on there are more of us out there.

Going through your christian names some are also in my line,  Mary (4 generations have it), William (as a second name 2 gens), Ellen (2 gens) and Dennis (1 gen. my late brother)

I started off with just the names of my g.g.grandfather Philip and mainly since 1837online.com came online I have found his parents Christopher and Mary plus Philip's 8 brothers and sisters. My branch appear to have used the Irish system of naming children, Fathers father, Mothers father, Fathers brother, Mothers brother and so on. I suppose I was lucky in a way in as much that two of the names in my branch had two christian names that are scarce in Irish families. Christopher and Philip.

I have discovered in America in 1866 a Christopher McGurn whose father was John McGurn who came from Canada.

I also discovered that Philiip and his wife Jane Annie OWENS had 7 children. Their children were all given two christian names, which was an great help when deciding to send off for copies of certificates. In fact I have been extremely lucky when sending off for certificates. I have only once got a cert that wasn't connected directly. However it was connected to a sibling of the previous generation.

Not counting the names from my grandfathers branch I have discovered 21 McGurns covering 4 generations going back to Christopher & Mary my g.g.g.grandparents.

There is one perculiar naming of a child. George Jones McGurn b 1860 died 1864. Haven't been able to find out why his second name is Jones.

Some while back a friend who had been given a present of the 1881 Census CD set sent me a list of all the McGurns listed on the census. I have them all listed for Renfrewshire, Lanarkshire and Stirling. So I will look through the lists for all the names you have given me and will post them later on.


I will have to look through all my bits and pieces regarding Darcy Main but from memory I think I only have her name as being Robert Comb's wife.

Jean


McGurn, Stables, Harris, Owens, Bellis, Stackhouse, Darwent, Co(o)mbe


Offline Old Laughin Lady

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Re: McGurns & Templetons- Where???
« Reply #4 on: Monday 25 April 05 12:45 BST (UK) »
Hi Jean

Just a quick note as I am at work.

My Great Grandfather was Dennis, my Grandfather was Dennis, his son Dennis died aged 9 and my brother is Dennis. So the odds are that we will have a link somewhere, and if as you say the first boy is usually named after the fathers father, that could mean that  my G Grandfather had an older brother Dennis ??
I have 3 generation of Mary's, 3 generations of John, 2 Williams and 4 of Margaret/Maggie.

The death certificate I mentioned for Ellen McGurn has Martin McGurn as her father and Margaret Campbell  as her mother, they were married in Glasgow in 1854.  I cannot trace the marriage certificate, nor their sons birth certificate (thats GGrandfather Dennis), nor either of the parents death certificates, but at least now I know they did exist and married.

The first trace of my grandfather Dennis is the 1881 census, you will see he is in Paisley by then.

What I would like to get a hold of is the 1861 census, but I dont know where I would get that, and even then if there are no birth, marriage or death records who's to say I will definately find anything, thats the frustrating part.

Your George Jones McGurn may have a welsh connection as both George & Jones are welsh.

Maggie

McGurn, Morton, Main, Templeton

Offline Jean McGurn

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Re: McGurns & Templetons- Where???
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday 27 April 05 20:11 BST (UK) »
Hi Maggie

Just to let you know I haven't forgotten about the lists. So far I have counted 83 McGurns on the 1881 census for Scotland if you also count Berwick of which there is just one a servant born in East Lothian.

There are 4 in Stirlingshire, 31 in Renfrewshire (Ren) and 47 in Lanarkshire.(Lan)

There is just one Dennis - Head of family born c1859 Lanarkshire.

4 Johns - all in Lan,  two of which are Head of family b 1813 Ireland and 1840 Ireland. the others are Sons born 1863 Lan, 1873 Lan and 1876 Ren.

2 Isabella's both Daughters , b 1860 Lan and 1879 Lan.

2 William's both Head of household in Ren, one born 1840 Ireland and the other named William John b 1854 Ireland

3 Ellen's one Wife b 1846 Ireland and the other two Daughters b 1835 Ireland and 1868 West Lothian.

10 Margaret's 6 in Ren and 4 in Lan.

9 Mary's two from Ren and 7 from Lan.

I found when doing my branch that once I had confirmed one sibling it followed that the other siblings all appeared with dates of birth about one/two year(s) apart.
So it may be possible to try and guestimate family members to get started.

To this end I think it possible in Lanarkshire to possibly have John b 1840 Ireland married to Margaret b 1844 Ireland. Assuming Isabella b 1860 Lan is a dau of John and Margaret then Joh b 1863 Lan, Margaret b 1862 Lan, Mary b 1864 Lan could be siblings of same family.

I am away this weekend at one of my civil war events, If my friend who had sent me the list of all the Scottish McGurns is also there, I will have words with her and see if either she can do me print-outs of them all or maybe she will be kind enough to loan me the CD's.  It  may take some while before I can find out more but I will let you know the outcome.

Cheers
Jean
McGurn, Stables, Harris, Owens, Bellis, Stackhouse, Darwent, Co(o)mbe

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Re: McGurns & Templetons- Where???
« Reply #6 on: Thursday 28 April 05 20:51 BST (UK) »
Hi Jean

Latest update..I have found my GG Grandfather Martin..thanks to Capricorn on the Lanarkshire site..he was McGorran, Married Margaret Campbell in 1854.  He was born in Antrim and Margaret was born in Donegal. My Great grandfather Dennis was born in Anderston in1856..Dennis McGorren, the name changed again in 1862 when they had a daughter Ellen, it was now McGurn.
None of them could write so I suspect they could not read either so they just made their mark against someone elses spelling of the name, so I need to search under them all now.

I found my GG Grandmother Margarets death certificate, she died in 1869, she died before Martin but I cannot trace his death certificate, I have guessed he died between 1869 and 1871 as there is no trace of him in the 1871 census, nor is there any trace of Dennis, but Dennis turns up in Paisley in 1881.
Dennis may have been taken in by Martins brother Patrick hence the different fathers names on his certificates.

Dennis definately had one brother Patrick aged 1 in 1861, and I traced a Patrick McGurn aged 10, living in boardings in Ardrossan, there was also a Martin McGurn staying there he was aged 4.(Have not yet discovered if they are related to each other or to my tree) If their Mother was Margaret and we know she died young and if Martin died soon after then they may have been fostered out...phew.
It would be so much easier if they had given their children unique names.

Anyway I will keep plodding on with my search..its a great adventure although frustrating at times as I am sure you know. I hope you enjoy your weekend and hopefully your friend will let you have some of the info from her census.

Maggie
McGurn, Morton, Main, Templeton

Offline Jean McGurn

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Re: McGurns & Templetons- Where???
« Reply #7 on: Thursday 28 April 05 21:37 BST (UK) »
Hi Maggie

A possible connection with our two branches I think.  I eventually found the birth certificate of my  2 x great grandfather Philip who was Christopher's 4th child under the name McGorren. The birth certificate show Philips father as Christopher McGorren (Is McGurn on all later certificates) and mother Mary Gormand (This is Gormly on all later certs).

As I haven't got any certificates for the first 3 children (1 was born in Ireland so don't think it's likely I can find it and I haven't found the 2nd two both born Liverpool under McGurn as yet)

I wonder if the McGurn clan were originally called McGorren.  Philip was born in 1846. 

Maybe I should also look for McGorren as well as McGurn. Like yourself I think the spelling was because they couldn't read. I had put the different spellings down to thick Irish accent not understood by the registrar. Seems quite a coincidence that Capricorn found your 2 x great grandfather had the same name as mine.

Incidently, when my g.grandfather's sister got married his name was put down as being her father which was impossible as she was two years older than him. Their father didn't die until 3 years after the marriage so it couldn't have been because he was deceased. It's even got g.grandfathers occupation right as well - wheelwright wereas g.g.grandfather was a paviour.

Bit of a mystery there I think.

Cheers
Jean
McGurn, Stables, Harris, Owens, Bellis, Stackhouse, Darwent, Co(o)mbe

Offline Old Laughin Lady

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Re: McGurns & Templetons- Where???
« Reply #8 on: Friday 29 April 05 20:58 BST (UK) »
Hi Jean

After I posted my update to you I went to the FamilySearch site and typed in all possible spellings I could think of and I discovered that Martin & Margaret had 3 more children, James McGorran, Ann McGorran and Martin McGorran, the other son they had was Patrick McGoran, and of course Dennis McGorren, 3 different spellings in the one household.
They would all sound the same in the Irish brogue, although I pronounce it Magurn. (another spelling perhaps)

So try all types of spelling in your search, I expect it became McGurn when they were able to read and write.

I'm off now to try and find Martins death certificate I will try all spellings, that may give a clue to his mother & father.  I will keep my eyes open for your names as well.

Maggie
McGurn, Morton, Main, Templeton