John Pole b.1829

[RRYFS]

My Pole tree has been thrown into confusion by contact from a GR member who has info at variance to that which has been passed to me. It is probably as a result of there being several Charles & Elizabeth Poles. Could someone (perhaps Mike?) seek out mother's maiden name for John Pole - born 24 August 1829, and baptised 13 September 1829 in Belgrave. I would be very grateful and will probably then seek further answers!

[Mike from Leicester]

Greeting’s Again. …RRVFS.

Oh NO..... not the dreaded Pole / Poll(s) / Poole(s)… of Belgrave. !!!!
There’s thousands of um…… 

Quick....... The PROZAC !!!  …….

Leave it with me I’ll see what I can come up with
So you can compare my findings with the other persons……..

MIKE……..

[RRYFS]

Hi Mike - thanks. My gran was Mary Ann Pole from a long line of FWKs, but she married well and the picture of her in her fur coat sticks in my mind. I have lots of info passed from others which takes our direct line back before 1600 - they were from Birstall. Ironically, when my grandpa built a house at the front of his yard in Loughborough Road, Belgrave, he got so fed up with people coming round on business when he wasn't working that he gave it to my uncle and built the same house two miles up the road in Birstall - so Mary Ann took the family back to Birstall, for a while! A trawl through the Phillimores for Belgrave is a long list of familiar names - Poles, Hubbards, Berridges, Lumleys, Picks. I have tried to build a database of Poles from Belgrave and then work outwards - but it is so complicated that it gets confusing. This latest question is not in my direct line but has exposed gaps in the census record and thrown doubts into my mind.

Richard

[Mike from Leicester]

Greeting’s Again. …Richard.

Just had a whiz around my Discs…….

How’s this grab you ? ……..

St: James the Great. Parish Church.
BIRSTALL.
1829.

Charles Pole. ~ Elizabeth EAMES.
No actual date found. …..Yet
But it was by Banns .

Now……. I see that an Elizabeth Eames married At the same Church. 

William  YATES…1803  21st May also by Banns

Yates....... is one of your names……..
I’ve helped you with before ……

MIKE……..

[RRYFS]

Hi Mike

Thanks - yes I have that, the date was 9th June. I need to prove that John was their son as a first step to answering my new contact. The records I have give him as an only child, but I can't definitely find Charles and Elizabeth in any census. If we can prove John's mother's name, then I have a further question to check out possible relationships.
You are right about Yates - I think that one may have been one of mine, as I am descended from George (b.1800) but not sure before that, though his father was Richard.

regards

Richard

[Mike from Leicester]

Greeting’s Again. ..Richard.

Thanks for the date….
By this I assume you have either the Marriage Certificate
Or have seen the details from the Registers ?

Re :~ prove of the surname of John’s Mother. …

This might be difficult to prove……
seeing that we can not call for his birth certificate ( Pre 1837 ) 

Plus no sign of this family group on a Census to see what Charles occupation was
Which we could match up to occupation given when John was Baptised.

Frustrating……..Have you thought of a Will ?
If Charles made a will stating  “ My only Son John.”………

MIKE. ………

[RRYFS]

Hi Mike

The dates came down to me from others, but I confirmed the date of marriage from Phillimores. They could be on the 1841 census at Payne's Close, Belgrave (HO107 592 10/9 13), but in that case there are 3 younger sisters. The date for Charles is also well out for what I have on a handwritten tree which we believe was produced in the 1980's from visits to the record office. It has Charles (b.1794) and the correct date of marriage, but goes no further. There is a tree which belongs to a guy who I was told is a History Professor at Melbourne University, which has Charles at 1794, gives Elizabeth as b.1811 (which matches the 1841 details above) and does include the younger sisters. My current problem arose as the GR contact is descended from Thomas (bp. 24.4.1835 at St Georges). There are a whole raft of apparent siblings bp. at St George's and I think they are all on the 1841 at Stamford Street, St Margaret (HO107 604 2/16 25). He thinks the parents are Charles Pole and Elizabeth Eames. The 1841 originals are incredibly faint and I can't make out any more detail than the transcript provides. Now I think these must be two separate families, but I need to establish which Charles and Elizabeth is which, and whose tree is hence incorrect (if not both). I don't have St George's marriages (I have looked on St Mary's and St Margaret's in the IGI batches, but can't find another Charles and Elizabeth, whose first children appear to be twins  (b.1826)). (Oh enough brackets to make an equation!).
I was just wondering if mother's maiden name might just appear in the original register. I have also not been able to find Charles and Elizabeth on censuses, despite having dates of death in 1884 and 1881 respectively. Just went to check again and found in 1881 the Charles and Elizabeth who have John in 1841 (but Charles shown as b. Nottingham) at 3 Claremont Street, Belgrave. More confusion! If that is true, they are unlikely to be part of "my" Pole family at all!
That will then leave me looking again for Charles Pole (b.1794 Belgrave), son of Charles Pole and Elizabeth Oswin who were married in Belgrave 6th Jan 1783.
Complicated or what? Any assistance gratefully received!

best wishes

Richard

[Mike from Leicester]

Greeting’s Again. …Richard. ……

I have had a good look at those Census returns via my digital scanned
Files on Discs of the 1841 Census
which are crystal clear. .......
not faded as Anc*

I strongly believe the Charles & Elizabeth at Belgrave are your line to follow
The reasons are as follows :~

Payne’s Close Belgrave.

Charles is a Frame Work Knitter.
Wife’s Christian name is Elizabeth.
John born 1829 is within this household.

By the way there is a Claremont Street within Belgrave just off Checkets Road.
 
The other Charles in Leicester details.
 
Charles was a Carpenter.
His Wife’s Christian name is ELIZA. Not born within Leicestershire.
NO John within the household.

Armed with this information on the occupations for both Charles
I will now look at the baptism 1829 at Belgrave for John
Hoping that the Occupation is given on the register
held at the Records Office .
   
A lot of the Registers for St: Georges Parish Church. Leicester
were lost in the great fire of 1911. which destroyed most of the church

MIKE. …. 

[RRYFS]

Hi Mike - Thanks again. My unclear census returns are on FindMyPast! I know Claremont Street - my gran was a regular at Claremont Street Methodist all her life until she moved to Worcestershire to live next door to us. My grandfather's building business was in Checketts Road in about 1912. I think I am clearer about which family is on my tree, and which is on this other guy's. Trouble is, I now think the one on my tree shouldn't be! I've checked all the censuses for Charles and Elizabeth - very confusing. Free BMD has the right deaths in 1884 and 1881, but Charles' age is wrong (and it still looks like he was born in Nottingham). I'll be grateful for any further info - esp if you can find a St George's marriage or a mother's maiden name somewhere - or a  Belgrave birth for Charles Pole in 1794!

Cheers

Richard