Author Topic: John Pole b.1829  (Read 14570 times)

Offline Mike from Leicester

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Re: John Pole b.1829
« Reply #9 on: Sunday 06 February 11 23:36 GMT (UK) »
Greeting’s Again. …Richard. ……

Who’s this grab you ?

St: Peter’s Parish Church.
Belgrave.
ANNO DOMINI :~ 1794.


Charles. Son of Charles & Elizabeth POOL.
Baptised ….3rd. August.

     
MIKE. …. 
Census Transcriptions are Crown Copyright from National Archives

Researching :-

Isle of Wight.          Oxfordshire / Warwickshire.

Cassell.                   Powers. 
Draper.                   Hirons.
Combs.                   Botts.
Stallard.                 Hall.

Offline Mike from Leicester

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Re: John Pole b.1829
« Reply #10 on: Monday 07 February 11 17:26 GMT (UK) »
Greeting’s again. …Richard.

Following a trip to the Records Office today………

St: James the Great Parish Church.
Birstall.


Marriage Registers …Read thus:~ . …….

1829.
Entry No’. 52.

Charles Pole. Of the Parish of Belgrave. Bachelor.

Elizabeth Eames. Of this Parish. Spinster.

Were Married in this Church
This Ninth Day of June. 
One Thousand Eight Hundred and Twenty Nine.
By Banns
By me :~ Richard Stephens Vicar.

Both made their Marks :~
Charles. ….X
Elizabeth. …+

In the Presence of :~
John Billington.
Fanny Sibson.


St: Peter’s Parish Church.
Belgrave.


Baptism Registers read thus :~

1829.
Entry No’. 473.
13th. September.

John. Born 24th. August.
Son of Charles & Elizabeth Pole.
Abode. …..Belgrave.
Charles’s Occupation …Frame Work Knitter.

Edward Bowman. Chaplain to the Asylum for Female Orphans Lambeth. London.
Officiating Minster.


I think you’ll have to agree this proves
that John is the Son of Elizabeth née Eames. From Birstall.
who’s husband is your Charles from Belgrave.

Therefore the other Charles & Elizabeth in Leicester are another couple.

Challenge the other contact to prove his Elizabeth is Elizabeth Eames……..

I’ll be prepared to supply photo prove of all the above should you require.

I had a look at an old map of Belgrave held at the Records Office

Payne’s Close was just off Checketts Road
1st on right from Melton Road
now named Paynes Street.

Not far from Clermont Street. ….




MIKE. ….. 


Census Transcriptions are Crown Copyright from National Archives

Researching :-

Isle of Wight.          Oxfordshire / Warwickshire.

Cassell.                   Powers. 
Draper.                   Hirons.
Combs.                   Botts.
Stallard.                 Hall.

Offline RRYFS

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Re: John Pole b.1829
« Reply #11 on: Monday 07 February 11 22:27 GMT (UK) »
Hi Mike

Thanks very much for all your efforts. Its really brilliant of you to go searching round the records office on behalf of complete strangers.
Sorry to keep taking up your time! I don't really have a problem with the other family - they apparently departed for London in the 1850s. My problem is that all this has highlighted significant inconsistencies. We have Charles Pole, son of Charles and Elizabeth, bp 3 August 1794. We have a marriage in 1829 between Charles Pole and Elizabeth Eames. I have found a record in Birstall for Elizabeth Eames (bp. 18 Feb 1810). We then have John (b. 24 August 1829). The records I have show John married to Martha which matches census entries and leads directly to their daughter Beatrice who was the grandmother of the source of much of my tree.
Now, on the 1841 census, there is a family with Charles and Elizabeth, John and sisters. Elizabeth has year of birth of 1811 and born Leicestershire. Charles has year of birth of 1811, and where born apparently blank. There is no sign of them in 1851 and 1861, but by 1871 in Birstall Street, St Margaret (RG10 3277 30 16) there is Charles (1811) born Nottinghamshire, Elizabeth (1810) born Leicestershire together with a son William (1845) born Leicestershire. Then in 1881 we have Charles and Elizabeth at 3 Claremont Street, Charles still born Nottinghamshire, and free BMD gives deaths for Charles and Elizabeth which match the ages from the census, and the dates of death from my tree.
My problem is very simple - if Charles was born 1811 in Nottinghamshire, he is not the son of Charles and Elizabeth who you found in 1794, and is very unlikely to be part of "my" Pole family, and which one married Elizabeth Eames is questionable. Not really sure what I can do now to prove anything, and I don't feel able to go back to the originator of the information in my tree to suggest that her family record is possibly wrong. It probably cuts her line off from a family which is traced back to before 1600!
Any suggestions?

Richard
Leicestershire - Yates, Wright, Pole, Blakesley
Dorset - Tilley, Hunt
Dorset/Somerset - Rogers
Dorset/Southampton - Trodd

Offline RRYFS

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Re: John Pole b.1829
« Reply #12 on: Monday 07 February 11 22:59 GMT (UK) »
Hi Mike

After composing all that, an idea arrived - send for a certificate for one of John's siblings. The only one possible from the 1841 census is "Ellen" - 1839. No sign on freeBMD but the IGI has a Helena (b.24 May 1839, bp.16 June 1839) daughter of Charles and Elizabeth, so I think I'll apply for her's, and see what that says.

Richard

Leicestershire - Yates, Wright, Pole, Blakesley
Dorset - Tilley, Hunt
Dorset/Somerset - Rogers
Dorset/Southampton - Trodd


Offline Mike from Leicester

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Re: John Pole b.1829
« Reply #13 on: Friday 11 February 11 02:34 GMT (UK) »
Greeting’s Again. …Richard.

Your Quote. “  There is no sign of them in 1851 and 1861, but by 1871 in Birstall Street,

Unquote. ........

Try these for your missing years…….

1851. Census returns HO107 / 2140 / 134 / Page. 17.

Castle Donnington.
Church Lane.


Charles Pole. Head Mar. 40. Policeman.   b Nottingham.
Elizabeth Wife. Dress maker…. b Birstall. 
Sarah. Dau. 19. Seamstress….. b Belgrave.
Emma. Dau. 15. Seamstress. …b Birstall.
Eleanor. Dau. 11. Seamstress... b   Belgrave.
Charles. Son. 8. Scholar………… b Belgrave.
William. Son. 6. Scholar………… b   Enderby.

1861. Census returns. RG 9. / 2299 / 36 / Page. 23.

Leicestershire.
Somerby.

Charles Pole. Head Mar. 50. Police Officer.    b       Nottingham.
Elizabeth. Wife. 51.  Dress maker.    b   Birstall.

Baptisms found :~

St: Peter’s Belgrave.
1829.
John. born 24th August. Son of Charles & Elizabeth Pole,
Bapt. 13th. September.

1832.
Sarah born 23rd. February. Daughter of Charles & Elizabeth Pole.
Bapt. 18th. March.


1836. St James Parish Church. Birstall.
Emma. Dau. of Charles & Elizabeth Pole. Bapt. 17th. April.

1839. St: Peter’s Belgrave.
Helena. Born 24th. May. Daughter of Charles & Elizabeth Pole.
Bapt. 16th. June.


1842.
Charles.  Born 10th. May. Son of Charles & Elizabeth Pole.
Bapt. 29th. May.

1850.
William.  Born 28th. February. 1844.
Mother Elizabeth Pole.
Bapt. 27th. January. 1850.

I believe John Pole ( b c 1829)  Married a Martha Brown of Rothley

MIKE. …..


Census Transcriptions are Crown Copyright from National Archives

Researching :-

Isle of Wight.          Oxfordshire / Warwickshire.

Cassell.                   Powers. 
Draper.                   Hirons.
Combs.                   Botts.
Stallard.                 Hall.

Offline RRYFS

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Re: John Pole b.1829
« Reply #14 on: Friday 11 February 11 14:35 GMT (UK) »
Hi Mike

Thanks again - that was a good find - which registration district does Castle Donnington come under? Just as an aside, my dad and my elder brother, who is also no longer with us, saw the Mercedes and Auto Unions race at Donnington Park before the war!
The big issue with this family is the age for Charles and the b.Nottingham bit. Charles, who married Elizabeth Eames was (as you recorded above) born in Belgrave in 1794. His father, Charles Pole, was also born in Belgrave, and his mother, Elizabeth Oswin was from Sileby.
I have sent for the birth certificate of Helena (or Eleanor, or Ellen) b. 1839, so in March I may have more idea. The tree which I have acquired, inherited, occasionally researched, has good details of John Pole and Martha's family as my original source is the granddaughter of their daughter, Beatrice.

Thanks again for your help. I will post any further findings here.

Richard
Leicestershire - Yates, Wright, Pole, Blakesley
Dorset - Tilley, Hunt
Dorset/Somerset - Rogers
Dorset/Southampton - Trodd

Offline Dizzifish

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Re: John Pole b.1829
« Reply #15 on: Friday 11 February 11 19:05 GMT (UK) »
Hi Richard....

Hopefully things will become clearer once you get the birth certificate.

I looked for a birth for you in Nottinghamshire for Charles - there are 89 Pole christenings; only one Charles & that was for a Charles Robert Pole, 1828.

One thing I did notice..... and may be a red herring....
The marriage that Mike has given you for Charles Pole & Elizabeth Eames, has one of the witnesses as John Billington and on the 12th July 1824 at Nottingham St Mary there is a marriage for a Thomas Billington to a Sarah Pole.

I have been lurking in the Newspaper's again!.... even they show some discrepancies to the information you have....with the couple both dying in 1884, the newspaper and FreeBMD having her as Eliza.

Have you seen the Will listed on Ancestry for Charles & Eliza 1884? on the entry for Charles it says proved at Leicester by John Pole of 317, Humberstone Rd, Leicester in said county, the son one of the executors.....

===

The Leicester Chronicle: or, Commercial and Agricultural Advertiser (Leicester) Saturday, June 15, 1844
Deaths
On Sunday, aged 46, Eliza, wife of Mr Charles Pole, Carpenter, Friar Lane.
====

Leicester Chronicle and the Leicestershire Mercury (Leicester), Saturday, May 24, 1884
Deaths
Pole - On the 20th ult, ELIZA, wife of Charles Pole, 51 Claremont Street, Belgrave, aged 68.
====

Leicester Chronicle and the Leicestershire Mercury (Leicester), Saturday, October 25, 1884
Deaths
Pole - On the 13th inst, at his residence, 51, Claremont Street, Belgrave, Mr Charles Pole, superannuated officer of the County Police, aged 74.
===


Kind Regards

Sheila.

Offline RRYFS

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Re: John Pole b.1829
« Reply #16 on: Friday 11 February 11 22:15 GMT (UK) »
Hi Sheila

Thanks, that's brilliant - I have not really found my way into wills or newspapers so most of that is new.  I don't do Ancestry, so don't pick some of those things up.
The Eliza in 1844 is obviously the wife of the other Charles, whose ancestor's message to me on GR started this all off.
Your obituary for Charles just goes to reinforce my doubts since Charles who is definitely in my tree was born in 1794, and the obit of (PC) Charles matches all the census records with a birth date of 1810.
There is definitely an Elizabeth Pole death in Barrow on Soar in 1881 on free BMD (age 71). The 1884 one was 87, and I think I can trace her in my tree. As Mike will tell you, there were oodles of Poles!
I hope the certificate should tell me if the wife of (PC) Charles was Elizabeth Eames. If she was, then I don't think they belong in my tree as Charles (b.1794) was definitely born in Belgrave, and will leave me wondering whether to tell someone else (whose tree is much bigger than mine) that she probably has a fairly large error in her direct line!

Thanks again for the help

Richard
Leicestershire - Yates, Wright, Pole, Blakesley
Dorset - Tilley, Hunt
Dorset/Somerset - Rogers
Dorset/Southampton - Trodd

Offline RRYFS

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Re: John Pole b.1829
« Reply #17 on: Friday 11 February 11 22:20 GMT (UK) »
Hi Sheila

Sudden brainwave, so I looked at marriages on freeBMD. Sept quarter 1882, Barrow on Soar, Charles Pole on the same page as Eliza Holmes!

Richard

Leicestershire - Yates, Wright, Pole, Blakesley
Dorset - Tilley, Hunt
Dorset/Somerset - Rogers
Dorset/Southampton - Trodd