Author Topic: DYER Family  (Read 24033 times)

Offline lullaby

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Re: DYER Family
« Reply #18 on: Wednesday 03 October 12 17:07 BST (UK) »
Janey - yes, but their fortunes seem to have changed about mid century.   My Mark was initially working for John Felton in Islington whom I think is related to William Felton who had a book entitled 'A treatise on carriages: comprehending coaches, chariots, phaetons' published in 1794 (according to Google!).  John Felton's son, Henry, was a witness at Mark John's wedding in 1827.   Daughter Susannah and her daughters appear to have been abandoned by her husband from Trinidad - I suspect he returned there.   Sadly she ended up in an asylum.

I do not know when Mark John Dyer left the West Indies for London but I have wondered whether - if there is a family link to the other Mark Dyer - that association helped him gain an apprenticeship with the Feltons.

My great great grandfather William Francis became a piano maker and seems to have been reasonably successful in business.

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Offline JaneyCanuck

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Re: DYER Family
« Reply #19 on: Wednesday 03 October 12 18:09 BST (UK) »
So the time line of births goes approximately

Mark Dyer 1750 (died 1832)
Henry Moreton Dyer 1775 (died 1841)
Mark John Dyer 1800

So Mark John Dyer 1800 could (theoretically) be
- a son of Mark Dyer 1750
- a son of Henry Moreton Dyer 1775
- a son of a different son of Mark Dyer 1750
- a son or grandson of a brother of Mark Dyer 1750
(or none of the above, of course!)

Henry Moreton Dyer claimed to be the only son of Mark Dyer 1750 when Mark Dyer 1750 died in 1832 -- he could have been the only surviving son (and Mark John Dyer 1750 could have been the son of a deceased son of Mark Dyer 1750)?

It seems Mark Dyer 1750 had a brother who had daughter Mary Dyer.

Mary's father could have been younger than Mark Dyer 1750, and also had son Mark John Dyer 1800. Mark Dyer 1750 would have made provision for her in his will because he had taken her in as a daughter -- whereas by 1832, Mark John Dyer 1800 was married and independent. Possibilities ...

If he made a bequest to Mary Dyer without appointing trustees or such, she must have been an adult? As a daughter of his brother, she would most likely have been middle-aged.

Where in London did Mark Dyer die in 1832? Presumably he left any real estate to son Henry, but perhaps Mary was in the same vicinity and we could look for her in 1841/51 or for her death that way.

That looks like a big question -- who was the brother of Mark Dyer 1750??


Do you suppose the long line of Dyers in Barbados is connected? (My sister will be in Barbados in December for a week; if she had a clue about any of this, I'd make her do lookups!) At FamilySearch, search for any Dyer event in West Indies 1600-1850, say. It seems to start with Roger, Thomas and Francis having children baptised 1648-1670, and some marriages around the same time.


Oops, crossed in the post. I've been trying for a few years to help someone find a coach painter and/or artist ancestor who was apparently in Canada in the early 1800s -- we cannot figure out who the modern-day person's grandfather born c1860 was, even, but he has in his possession some unsigned early 19th century watercolours of military sites in Ontario, copies of which are now in the possession of historical authorities here in Canada I put him in touch with, who are thrilled with them. Maybe they're all related. ;)

I myself appear to be descended from Hills of Devon/Cornwall (in fact, the Alphington connection) and am in the middle of having DNA testing done to try to prove or disprove that theory (the paper trail I discovered is solid, but the tall paternity tales remain). Maybe your dastardly William Hill (I swear, the name second only to James Hill for common-as-dirt in Devon, and I have a William son of James ...) was one of mine!
HILL, HOARE, BOND, SIBLY, Cornwall (Devon); DENNIS, PAGE, WHITBREAD, Essex; BARNARD, CASTLE, PONTON, Wiltshire; SANKEY, HORNE, YOUNG, Kent; COWDELL, Bermondsey; COOPER, SMITH, FALLOWELL, WILLEY, Notts; CAMPION, CARTER, CRADDOCK, KENNY, Northants; LITTLER, CORNER, Leicestershire; RUSHLAND, Lincolnshire; MORRISON, Ireland; COLLINS, ?; ... MONCK?

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Offline lullaby

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Re: DYER Family
« Reply #20 on: Thursday 04 October 12 16:45 BST (UK) »
Hi Janey -

Seeing the situation in black and white rather than in my mind seems to make the problem even more unsurmountable!   I confess I have rather reached the stage of declaring a permanent brickwall.   However, you have no idea how grateful I am to have someone look at the facts with a fresh eye.

Mark Dyer (the other) died in Kensington, London.   However he seems to have had very little left to bequeath.   He expresses his regret that he is unable from want of pecuniary means to enjoy the gratification of bequeathing a legacy to his beloved niece, Mary, but she is to be furnished with a mourning ring in token of rememberance.   Obviously Henry Moreton Dyer's wealth was self-made and by virtue of his wife's family.   I have searched for Mary Dyer in the past but it is unfortunately such a common name!

There is in addition another snake in the grass in Tortola at much the same time and that is Mark Dyer French who died there in 1838.  His mother could of course have been the other Mark Dyer's relative.   However that just complicates the situation even further.

In my research I have perhaps placed too much emphasis on the continuation of forenames down the family line which seems to have been so prevalent at the time.   The IGI has a record of a Mark Dyer who was baptised in 1804 on St Vincent.   He was the son of Samuel Dyer and Celia Albert.   It is entirely possible - as there was no church on the Virgin Islands at the time - that it (the baptism) was delayed and I understand there was a fair amount of movement between the islands due to both political and economical reasons.   This pair had several other children baptised between 1811 and 1824.  There is however no recognition of either a Samuel or a Celia within Mark John Dyer's own family. 

Also, the slave registers on Ancestry for Tortola record a John Dyer owning slaves between 1818 and 1834.   He seems to have had at least three children - Henry Dyer, Mary and Sarah.   These forenames are reflected in Mark John's family (his first son was named Henry Mark).

Many thanks, but I don't know of any connection with Barbados.   There was a William Dyer on Trinidad at the time of the slave registers and I have wondered whether he is connected and it was through this connection that the 'dastardly' William Hill joined Mark John in London!

Unfortunately female children seem to have dominated the line and I have so far been unable to find a straight male link for DNA purposes.  My father's mother was a Dyer.

I am grateful for your suggestions.   There are some more newspapers now on line which I must search through

Regards Lesley

Offline phicar

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Re: DYER Family
« Reply #21 on: Tuesday 09 October 12 10:27 BST (UK) »
bonjour
 j' ai trouvé des informations sur "digital library of caribbean    caribbeana volume 6 pages 78 et 79 " sur mon mark dyer mais votre hypothèse sur le frère d' henri willis moreton est intéressante surtout que mark dyer a eu une première femme appelé mary morte en 1811 avant la mère d' henri moreton . Mais pour l' instant je n' ai rien de mieux .

Offline JaneyCanuck

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Re: DYER Family
« Reply #22 on: Tuesday 09 October 12 14:52 BST (UK) »
and for lullaby:


Hello
I have found some information at "digital library of caribbean    caribbeana volume 6 pages 78 et 79" about my Mark Dyer but your hypothesis about the brother of Henry Willis Moreton is interesting, particularly since Mark Dyer had a first wife named Mary Morte in 1811 before Henry Moreton's mother. But that is all I have at the moment.


(JC adds: that's a little confusing, since Mark Dyer was born 1750 and died 1832, and son Henry Moreton Willis Dyer was born in 1775 and died in 1841 -- Mark Dyer's first marriage would not have been in 1811 -- ?)
HILL, HOARE, BOND, SIBLY, Cornwall (Devon); DENNIS, PAGE, WHITBREAD, Essex; BARNARD, CASTLE, PONTON, Wiltshire; SANKEY, HORNE, YOUNG, Kent; COWDELL, Bermondsey; COOPER, SMITH, FALLOWELL, WILLEY, Notts; CAMPION, CARTER, CRADDOCK, KENNY, Northants; LITTLER, CORNER, Leicestershire; RUSHLAND, Lincolnshire; MORRISON, Ireland; COLLINS, ?; ... MONCK?

Offline lullaby

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Re: DYER Family
« Reply #23 on: Tuesday 09 October 12 16:41 BST (UK) »
Bonjour

According to my research, your Mark Dyer married Anne Moreton at St George's Church, Hanover Square, London about 25 August 1774 - she was the mother presumably of Henry Moreton Dyer.   She seems to have died, possibly in the West Indies, and he then married Mary Hamer (this wasn't her maiden/birth surname - she was a widow) in 1802 at St Mary Abbotts, Kensington, London.   This marriage failed and they separated.   I have a copy of her will - she died in 1812.   This must be Mary Morte.   Her first husband was Joseph Hamer.

I doubt that she is the mother of my Mark John Dyer as she makes no mention of him in her will and I think your Mark Dyer had left Tortola by then.   There is a newspaper article which mentions that Mark Dyer arrived at Falmouth in December 1801 on the vessel Lord Charles Spencer from Tortola.

I didn't know that Caribbeana had been digitalised.   Is there mention of any other Dyers on Tortola in it?

Lesley

Offline phicar

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Re: DYER Family
« Reply #24 on: Wednesday 10 October 12 14:23 BST (UK) »
bonjour je n' avais pas les dates alors je pensais que marie hamer était la première femme
sur caribbeana il ya un arbre généalogique


                                                Margaret... = John Dyer of st Anthony's ,Montserrat = Marie...



         with Margaret   Matthiew Dyer  1724 (baptims)
                                Michael Dyer     1725
                                Joseph Dyer      1728
                                Mark Dyer           ?   ensign in Lucas' Regt died 1742 in La Guayra



            with Marie   Henri Dyer born 1742-1788 a daughter elisabeth
                              Margaret Dyer   1745
                              Mark Dyer          1749-1832  = ann arabelle morton(moreton ) 1774  his son  Henri Morton Willis Dyer 1775-1841 =Rebecca Phipps died 1830
                                                                         =Mary =Joseph Hamer of Demerara



i have just find it  ... for the moment 


Offline JaneyCanuck

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Re: DYER Family
« Reply #25 on: Wednesday 10 October 12 16:24 BST (UK) »
Caribbeana - interesting:

http://www.dloc.com/UF00075409/00003

There's a search function -- 13 results for Dyer, including the index showing references to Ann Arabella, Henry, Henry Moreton, John and Mark and the pages they appear on.

There's a codicil to a will, dated 1795, witnessed by Geo. Dyer of Tortola (p. 362). He might be an interesting person - in the right place and time to be the father of Mark John Dyer 1800, or at least the generation of his father perhaps.

The only other result for dyer + tortola is in a section that seems to deal with arms on bookplates.

Montserrat
576. "Henry Dyer" Wreath and ribbon arm
Arms, -- Or, a chief indented Sable
Crest, -- Out of a coronet a goat's head
Chief Judge of M., matriculated from St Mary Hall, Oxf, 1759, aged 17, as son of John Dyer of M., Esq., and died 1788. His father, who was also Chief Judge, died 1781. Mark Dyer (of Tortola) is the same plate with name altered.

So these would be Henry Dyer 1742 and Mark Dyer 1749, as in the family tree that phicar reproduced above.

And it looks like the family was in Montserrat and it was Mark 1749 who relocated to Tortola.

Unfortunately, the bookplate listings skip from Tobago to Trinidad, with nothing for Tortola specifically.

A search at FamilySearch for Dyer born in Montserrat turns up a number of people born in the late 1800s, in the US censuses. Thanks to the obsession with race, they are all identified as Black.
HILL, HOARE, BOND, SIBLY, Cornwall (Devon); DENNIS, PAGE, WHITBREAD, Essex; BARNARD, CASTLE, PONTON, Wiltshire; SANKEY, HORNE, YOUNG, Kent; COWDELL, Bermondsey; COOPER, SMITH, FALLOWELL, WILLEY, Notts; CAMPION, CARTER, CRADDOCK, KENNY, Northants; LITTLER, CORNER, Leicestershire; RUSHLAND, Lincolnshire; MORRISON, Ireland; COLLINS, ?; ... MONCK?

Offline lullaby

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Re: DYER Family
« Reply #26 on: Wednesday 10 October 12 16:57 BST (UK) »
This is really fascinating and I need some time to absorb it all - thank you both.

If I understand correctly, John Dyer from Monserrat had two wives, the second (Marie) being the mother of phicar's Mark Dyer.

Now, to further complicate the situation, I wonder whether Mark's older sister Margaret was the mother of Mark Dyer French (having married a Mr French, of course) who is also very prominent on Tortola in the late 18th/early 19th century.   Amongst his daughters were a Maria and a Margaret.    He died on the island in 1838.

I must go back through all my notes as I initially researched this about two years ago.

On file at the National Archives in Kew is an early census taken on Tortola in 1717, I think without checking, which records a John Dyer with a wife and child from England.   Montserrat and the Virgin Islands as we now know them were under the same administration so it is quite possible that this John moved across to Monteserrat.   Unfortunately the census does not record the names of his wife and child.