Author Topic: American, British Subject  (Read 15355 times)

Offline anitah1972

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American, British Subject
« on: Saturday 02 April 11 15:17 BST (UK) »
Mystery here... hoping someone can help me find a bit more documentation...

What I know:
My mother's mother's mother was Helen McGregor Seth, b. 1869 in Dumbarton.  The (transcription of the) 1871 Scottish Census lists her in Dumbarton, parents as William Seth ("ship joiner at works") and Mary J Seth, b. 1844 (age 27) whose birthplace is listed only as "Subject, America British". 

THAT was a surprise... but it made it easier to track the family and find Mary Jane as a child.  The 1861 Census has a Mary Jane Jarvis (age 17, same "Subject, American British"), dressmaker and stepdaughter to head of household Charles Douglas; mother listed as Helen Douglas, whole pile of Douglas children.   The family is living on High Street, Linlithgow.

Farther back - 1851 Census - lists her as age 7, same parents, brother William Jarvis, age 5, and for both, place of birth is listed as "British Subject, United States."

Other helpful online folk have confirmed: Mary Jane Jervis and William Seth married Dec 31, 1862, Helen McGregor Seth was born July 3rd, 1869.  This family has had a VERY strong tendency for naming children after their grandparents.  So I started looking for a Helen McGregor Jarvis who might have been Mary Jane's mother.  There is also a David Jarvis Seth among Mary Jane's children... giving me a headstart on her father's name.

Some digging DID find me a New York Passenger List (arrival 31 May 1842) that includes David Jarvis (age 28, "wright") and Helen Jarvis (age 20) traveling with a Margaret McGregor (age 19) and Mary McGregor (age 9).  (Her sisters?)  They had departed Dundee (although it may not have originated there, and that's just the port, not necessarily a residence of any of the travelers.) In trying to research the ship, I found mention from the port recordkeeper in NY that the same ship had arrived a year earlier full of immigrants whose passage had been paid by the Glasgow Emigration Society, and who had arrived penniless, expecting to be given land, which was not at all the case.  He notes that he arranged for some to work in the port, but some refused it.

An IGI lookup confirms: David Jervis and Helen McGrigor married Jun 4th, 1838, in Dundee, Angus, Scotland. 

Back to the Census ... 1841 finds a David Jarvis (age 25) and Helen Jarvis (age shown as 26, but I think that may be a transcription error and what's written is '20', with the "0" being looped and mistaken for a "6"?) living on High St in Linlithgow, no children.  He's listed as a Journeyman Joiner (Joiner J) and she as a dressmaker.  So all of that fits.

However: I can find no record of either of them before their marriage.  I can find no record of a family with children Helen, Margaret and Mary McGregor/McGrigor in Linlithgow or elsewhere.  I can't pin down a David Jarvis in Dundee (why did they marry there?)  I can't explain why they would have picked up and gone to NY, I can't find any record of them in NY, and I can't find any record of David Jarvis after his arrival.  I can find no birth record for Mary Jane or William in the US.  I can't find any record of Helen and her children Mary Jane and William returning to Scotland.  I can't explain how Helen lived in the same place (High St. Linlithgow) with both husbands... but no other family. (Is High St. a long road? Maybe it's coincidence?)

I did, in trying to imagine the story, discover that there was a particularly bad cholera epidemic in NYC in 1849, but it's pure speculation to think that was a cause of death for David or the impetus for the family to return to Scotland.  I can't even confirm that they stayed in NYC and didn't travel/live elsewhere while in the States.

I'm so intrigued... ANY suggestions on how to track down more info on this family - including help with any lookups you think might be helpful - would be appreciated!     
LEWNES/LIOUNIS from Greece, settled in Brooklyn, Kings, NYC, USA
ZBORAZ/SBORAI/SPORAY from Austria/Hungary/Czechoslovakia, settled in Pennsylvania, USA
GRAY from Galasheils/Hawick, Scotland
BAIN, SETH, GARDNER, DOUGLAS from Falkirk/Bo'ness/Linlithgow/Dumbarton, Scotland
MCGREGOR/MCGRIGOR/JARVIS from Scotland

Offline tigger_lass

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Re: American, British Subject
« Reply #1 on: Saturday 02 April 11 16:30 BST (UK) »
Hi Anita

An IGI lookup confirms: David Jervis and Helen McGrigor married Jun 4th, 1838, in Dundee, Angus, Scotland.

The OPR for the marriage on SP shows that David Jervis was a cabinetmaker and Helen McGrigor was the daughter of what looks like Will. McGrigor Linlithgow.

Tracey
THOMSON - Shotts, Allanton
DEANS - Lanarkshire, Bathgate, Armadale, Ireland, Ayrshire
PATERSON - Shotts, West Lothian, Midlothian
CAMERON - Motherwell, Kilmallie
WHITEHEAD - Dunblane
BRODIE - Whitburn, Stronsay
DICK - West Lothian
SEDGEWORTH/SIGSWORTH - Lanarkshire, Paisley, Durham
PARVIN/PARVEN - Yorkshire, Lanarkshire
SCOTT - Lanarkshire
GREENWELL - Armadale, Bathgate
HUNTER - Armadale, Bathgate
LISTER - Fife, West Lothian
GRAHAM - Polmont
ROBERTSON - Polmont

Offline tigger_lass

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Re: American, British Subject
« Reply #2 on: Saturday 02 April 11 16:34 BST (UK) »
Hi

There's an extracted record on the IGI for the marriage of Helen McGregor or Jarvis, father William McGregor, to Charles Douglas 1/10/1848 in Linlithgow.

Tracey
THOMSON - Shotts, Allanton
DEANS - Lanarkshire, Bathgate, Armadale, Ireland, Ayrshire
PATERSON - Shotts, West Lothian, Midlothian
CAMERON - Motherwell, Kilmallie
WHITEHEAD - Dunblane
BRODIE - Whitburn, Stronsay
DICK - West Lothian
SEDGEWORTH/SIGSWORTH - Lanarkshire, Paisley, Durham
PARVIN/PARVEN - Yorkshire, Lanarkshire
SCOTT - Lanarkshire
GREENWELL - Armadale, Bathgate
HUNTER - Armadale, Bathgate
LISTER - Fife, West Lothian
GRAHAM - Polmont
ROBERTSON - Polmont

Offline tigger_lass

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Re: American, British Subject
« Reply #3 on: Saturday 02 April 11 16:54 BST (UK) »
Hi

Possible parents of Helen? Extracted marriage on the IGI for a William McGrigor and Mary Cant in Linlithgow 14 Aug 1819.

Also on IGI - extracted births for children of William and Mary at Linlithgow

Jean McGregor 18 Mar 1833
Marion McGregor 27 Dec 1835
Wilhelmina McGregor 14 Jan 1838

Submitted birth for a Mary Hardy McGregor 25/12/1828 Linlithgow

Can't find a birth for Helen though. In the 1841 census she states she was born in West Lothian.

THOMSON - Shotts, Allanton
DEANS - Lanarkshire, Bathgate, Armadale, Ireland, Ayrshire
PATERSON - Shotts, West Lothian, Midlothian
CAMERON - Motherwell, Kilmallie
WHITEHEAD - Dunblane
BRODIE - Whitburn, Stronsay
DICK - West Lothian
SEDGEWORTH/SIGSWORTH - Lanarkshire, Paisley, Durham
PARVIN/PARVEN - Yorkshire, Lanarkshire
SCOTT - Lanarkshire
GREENWELL - Armadale, Bathgate
HUNTER - Armadale, Bathgate
LISTER - Fife, West Lothian
GRAHAM - Polmont
ROBERTSON - Polmont


Offline anitah1972

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Re: American, British Subject
« Reply #4 on: Saturday 02 April 11 17:46 BST (UK) »
Oo! Thank you! The confirmation is fantastic and the date of the marriage to Charles Douglas helps identify when they returned to Scotland... and it's earlier than I'd thought; she'd have made the crossing (back) when William was (no more than) 2 and Mary Jane was about 4.   (Wow... that really suggests a motivation to get 'home.')

Siblings in '33-'38 ...hmmm....I'm thinking there are probably quite a few other births in there, too.  Helen in about '22 fits with the marriage date, and my speculation is that there's a Margaret in '23 and a Mary in '33 fits in the gap... probably with a few others. (I'm amazed at the fertility... not that I imagine they had many options with that.  :)

I really appreciate the help!  Off to see what I can find on the McGregor/Cant families, too! 


LEWNES/LIOUNIS from Greece, settled in Brooklyn, Kings, NYC, USA
ZBORAZ/SBORAI/SPORAY from Austria/Hungary/Czechoslovakia, settled in Pennsylvania, USA
GRAY from Galasheils/Hawick, Scotland
BAIN, SETH, GARDNER, DOUGLAS from Falkirk/Bo'ness/Linlithgow/Dumbarton, Scotland
MCGREGOR/MCGRIGOR/JARVIS from Scotland

Offline tigger_lass

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Re: American, British Subject
« Reply #5 on: Saturday 02 April 11 18:08 BST (UK) »
Hi Anita

Found Ellen McGregor Douglas's death 21 Feb 1871 in Linlithgow on SP. Parents confirmed as William McGregor (shoemaker) and Mary Cant.

Interestingly, on the 1841 census, Helen's 2nd husband Charles Douglas is also shown as a shoemaker living in High Street, Linlithgow, aged 21.

Tracey
THOMSON - Shotts, Allanton
DEANS - Lanarkshire, Bathgate, Armadale, Ireland, Ayrshire
PATERSON - Shotts, West Lothian, Midlothian
CAMERON - Motherwell, Kilmallie
WHITEHEAD - Dunblane
BRODIE - Whitburn, Stronsay
DICK - West Lothian
SEDGEWORTH/SIGSWORTH - Lanarkshire, Paisley, Durham
PARVIN/PARVEN - Yorkshire, Lanarkshire
SCOTT - Lanarkshire
GREENWELL - Armadale, Bathgate
HUNTER - Armadale, Bathgate
LISTER - Fife, West Lothian
GRAHAM - Polmont
ROBERTSON - Polmont

Offline anitah1972

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Re: American, British Subject
« Reply #6 on: Saturday 02 April 11 18:33 BST (UK) »
That is interesting!  It seems likely they knew each other before she left.  It seems like a close-knit community/family; in the next generation, Mary Jane's husband William Seth appears to have married her half-sister Helen Douglas after Mary Jane's death.   

Thank you again! :)   
LEWNES/LIOUNIS from Greece, settled in Brooklyn, Kings, NYC, USA
ZBORAZ/SBORAI/SPORAY from Austria/Hungary/Czechoslovakia, settled in Pennsylvania, USA
GRAY from Galasheils/Hawick, Scotland
BAIN, SETH, GARDNER, DOUGLAS from Falkirk/Bo'ness/Linlithgow/Dumbarton, Scotland
MCGREGOR/MCGRIGOR/JARVIS from Scotland

Offline tigger_lass

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Re: American, British Subject
« Reply #7 on: Saturday 02 April 11 18:57 BST (UK) »
Hi

Very close-knit indeed!

Have found Mary Cant's death on SP. She died 13 Jun 1866, the wife of a William Glen, shoemaker!

It looks as though her first husband William McGregor, also a shoemaker and the father of Helen, died before 1841. There is an extracted marriage on the IGI for Mary Cant or MacGregor to William Glen 5 Apr 1841 at Linlithgow.

On Mary's death certificate her parents are shown as John Cant, tanner, and Isabella Miller (both deceased).

Linlithgow was an important centre for leatherwork in the 18th and 19th centuries and there is a Grade C Listed Building at 212-214 High Street that is a surviving remnant of the tannery trade. In the 18th century there were 17 tanneries in the town along with 12 skinneries and 18 currying establishments.

According to the IGI, there is an extracted marriage for John Cant and Isabella Miller 5 Sep 1794 in Brechin, Angus - could this be the link to Dundee? They had 3 children on the IGI -
James 31 May 1795, John 1 Jan 1797 and Mary 5 Aug 1798, all born in Brechin.

Tracey
THOMSON - Shotts, Allanton
DEANS - Lanarkshire, Bathgate, Armadale, Ireland, Ayrshire
PATERSON - Shotts, West Lothian, Midlothian
CAMERON - Motherwell, Kilmallie
WHITEHEAD - Dunblane
BRODIE - Whitburn, Stronsay
DICK - West Lothian
SEDGEWORTH/SIGSWORTH - Lanarkshire, Paisley, Durham
PARVIN/PARVEN - Yorkshire, Lanarkshire
SCOTT - Lanarkshire
GREENWELL - Armadale, Bathgate
HUNTER - Armadale, Bathgate
LISTER - Fife, West Lothian
GRAHAM - Polmont
ROBERTSON - Polmont

Offline tigger_lass

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Re: American, British Subject
« Reply #8 on: Saturday 02 April 11 19:11 BST (UK) »
Lol...me again!

The 1841 census has Mary Cant (now called Glen) living at High Street, Linlithgow -

William Glen 25 Shoemaker b. West Lothian
Mary Glen 35 b. outside census county
Isabella McGregor 10 b. West Lothian
Jean McGregor 8 b. West Lothian
Marion McGregor 6 b. West Lothian
Wilhelmina McGregor 3 b. West Lothian
John McGregor 1 b. West Lothian

Her daughter Helen Jarvis is on the same Folio page on the Census!

Tracey

THOMSON - Shotts, Allanton
DEANS - Lanarkshire, Bathgate, Armadale, Ireland, Ayrshire
PATERSON - Shotts, West Lothian, Midlothian
CAMERON - Motherwell, Kilmallie
WHITEHEAD - Dunblane
BRODIE - Whitburn, Stronsay
DICK - West Lothian
SEDGEWORTH/SIGSWORTH - Lanarkshire, Paisley, Durham
PARVIN/PARVEN - Yorkshire, Lanarkshire
SCOTT - Lanarkshire
GREENWELL - Armadale, Bathgate
HUNTER - Armadale, Bathgate
LISTER - Fife, West Lothian
GRAHAM - Polmont
ROBERTSON - Polmont