Helen Kenley and Elizabeth 'Hawkey'

[HubbellGardiner]

Hi Mundell

Just had a quick look on Scotlands People for possible matches for deaths for either Andrew or Elizabeth.

I've found it is usually easier to find a wife's death certificate first. Because a married woman's maiden name is usually listed you can often find the correct match more easily than looking for the husband's death certificate. Also if you find the wife's death certificate this will say if she is a widow at the time of her death and so narrow down the timescale for finding the husband's death certificate. This is especially helpful if you are looking for a more common name with lots of potential matches eg Brown

On Scotlands People there is a death in Abbotshall, Fife in 1889 for Elizabeth Brown. Interestingly the other surname is listed as Hackett. Could this be a possible match?

Hope this information helps.

Regards,
HubbellGardiner

[Mundell]

Hello HubbellGardiner and weemanswife,  I have tried and failed to send this message twice so you may get multiple posts!

Thanks for going the extra mile. Thanks to your advice, I have managed to work my way through the barrier. I found death certs. for both Andrew and Elizabeth [Halket(t)] Brown.  Halket(t) is confirmed now on several documents.  Their parents' names are clear and I shall do more work on these in due course.

Using the same method, I traced death certs. for John and Janet (Brown) Walton.  Janet's confirmed Halket.  John's parents are given as John Walton and Elizabeth Rollo, and other searches I have done confirm this combination.  So again I now have more to work on.

Would either of you have any suggestions as to why the parents' names on Janet and Johns marriage cert. are so wrong?  Hawkey, perhaps can more easily be understood.  But John obviously thought his mother was Helen Kenley.  They gave this as a middle name to their daughter Alice who was my Grandmother. I am trying to attach a copy of their marriage cert. for your info.

Anyway, thanks again for your helpful guidance.  Regards, Mundell

[HubbellGardiner]

Hi again Mundell

Glad to hear you've managed to make such good progress.

I've looked at the marriage certificate you attached and I agree it is quite confusing with regards to the parents' names. I think you may be right and Hawkey and Hackett are close enough that it may just be down to someone mishearing the word. However John's mother's name is another matter.

In my own family tree I have found a couple of occasions where the mother's name on the death certificate and the marriage certificate were two totally different names but I found that the marriage certificate usually was the correct name. I presumed that this was because the name on the marriage certificate had been given by the son or daughter whereas on the death certificate it may have been given by a relative who was less familiar with the name of a family member who had possibly died decades previously. However, in your case it appears that the death certificate has the correct name and that John gave the incorrect name for his mother when he married

It certainly is a bit of a mystery. I'll have another look at the marriage certificate and then get back to you with any thoughts I have.

Regards,

HubbellGardiner

[HubbellGardiner]

Hi Mundell

Looking at the marriage certificate I noticed that Janet's mother is given as Elizabeth Brown maiden name Hawkey. However, John's mother is given as Helen Kenley and no mention of a maiden name. I would have thought that it should have read Helen Walton maiden name Kenley If you look at the other marriage certificate for the couple listed above John and Janet you can see that the mothers are both listed by married name followed by maiden name so Helen Kenley doesn't seem to follow the same pattern. It may just be an oversight by the person who filled out the certificate but it might be something to bear in mind in case it does have some significance.

Also I have a couple of questions which may clarify things.

Firstly, have you managed to trace John on the census when he was a child? If so is his mother listed as Elizabeth or Helen? Is it possible that John's father was married to Elizabeth Rollo and she died and he subsequently married Helen Kenley? Could Helen be John's step-mother?

Secondly, who was the informant on John's death certificate?

Happy to be of help.

Regards,
HubbellGardiner

[Mundell]

Good Evening,

Thanks for your suggestions.  John Walton's birth entry gives his parents as John Walton and Elizabeth Rollo - all confirmed by death certs and marriage entries etc.  There are several variations of 'Helen Kenley' but not in connection with John Walton.  It must have been a significant name for him as my grandmother carries it as her middle name.  Maybe there was some informal arrangement between families that cannot be verified.

Thanks for all your advice.  You have been most helpful.   Good hunting!  Regards, Mundell

[hdw]

Would either of you have any suggestions as to why the parents' names on Janet and Johns marriage cert. are so wrong?  Hawkey, perhaps can more easily be understood.  But John obviously thought his mother was Helen Kenley.  They gave this as a middle name to their daughter Alice who was my Grandmother. I am trying to attach a copy of their marriage cert. for your info.

Anyway, thanks again for your helpful guidance.  Regards, Mundell

The fact that the marriage-certificate says nothing about Helen Kenley's maiden name is a dead give-away, and shows that she was not married to John Walton's father, John Walton senior. I have seen this many times on certificates. Helen Kenley would actually have been her maiden name. Obviously she managed to get the father to admit paternity, or she wouldn't have been allowed to call their illegitimate son after him.

John Walton junior must have been born around 1839-40 but there seems to be no birth-entry for him in the OPR. However, an illegitimate child was often baptised in private by the minister and the details entered in the kirk-session records rather than the parish records. Sometimes both sets of records are kept in the same book, but often the kirk-session records were kept in separate registers.

It's only because of kirk-session records that I know the paternity of my great-grandfather James Peebles, whose birth and baptism in 1853 are only recorded in the Crail kirk-session records. His father was also called James Peebles.

Incidentally, that James Peebles senior (my 2 x great-grandfather) had a half-brother called David Peebles who married an Ann "Kinley" at Scoonie in 1878. I imagine Kinley and Kenley are the "same" name. The Fifers tend to pronounce an i as an open e- sound, and let's face it, a lot of them couldn't read and write in those days, let alone spell correctly!

Harry

[Mundell]

Hello Harry,

Thanks for the contact and interesting info.  I didn't know about the dual registers.

I did not notice, or realise the significance of there being no maiden name.  Since HubbellGardiner's comment alerted me to this, I have been having thoughts along the lines you mentioned.  However, John Walton's death cert. clearly gives his parents as John Walton and Elizabeth Rollo.  I then found a OPR entry for John Walton Junior's birth in December 1842 to John Walton and Elizabeth Rollo.  Having said that, he gives his age as 21 at his marriage in 1860.

The name Kenley, Kinley and variations occur in several places, so I don't know how far I can take this.  For Example there is a boy child born and died on the same day in 1838 to Andrew Kenley and Ann Rolls.  In 1834 there is a marriage of Ann Rollo to a Thomas Kinlay and in 1844 this same Ann (Rollo) Kinlay died.  But I cannot find a birth connected to this couple.  I know this is not a 'Helen', but I am just wondering if there is a connection at all with Elizabeth Rollo, and that maybe there has been an accommodation within the wider family. 

I also note that John and Elizabeth did not name their first son John. 

Anyway, I shall file your info. away and find it useful in the future.  Regards, Mundell

[Mundell]

Hello Harry and HubbellGardiner,

Just one more question, if you don't mind, before I exit this topic.

I don't suppose that the kirk-session records are digitized, are they? I couldn't be that lucky!  Looking at the Parish Register entry, it does look as though John Walton's birth entry looks very cramped and could have been squeezed in at the very top, but I might be being fanciful.

Reason is that I have another similar, but different, situation with the Mundell strand of this family.  My Grandmother Alison 'Kenley' Walton Married Robert Glendinning Mundell in 1909.  He gave his birth age as 35 and his parents as Robert Mundell and Mary m.s. Munro.

I can't find this couple anywhere.  I have found a birth for Robert Glendinning Mundell in 1871 to James Mundell and Mary m.s. Currie.  (Her mother's m.s was Glendinning).  I am inclined to assume that this is him. If the writing is difficult, Currie could be misconstrued as Munroe, But James Mundell?  and 1871?  Unfortunately, Robert G's death Cert. is little help as he died in service with the 14th Royal Scots Regiment in 1915 and is buried in Weymouth.  Unfortunately also, English documentation has fewer details eg. regarding birth parents, than the Scottish documents.

I haven't been successful in finding his Service records either.

It's another intrigue and most likely a similar issue to that you have both hi-lighted.

Any further info. you might suggest would be much appreciated.

Regards,   Mundell

[hdw]

I don't believe that the kirk-session records have yet been digitised, although I imagine they will be eventually. When I started doing genealogy, in about 1980, all the kirk-session records were kept in what was then the Scottish Record Office (now the National Archives of Scotland) right next door to Register House in Edinburgh, which was really convenient if you happened to live in Edinburgh.

Then, at a later date, the decision was taken to decentralise these records, and if a particular area happened to have an appropriate library or archive to house them, the records were sent there, e.g. East Fife kirk-session records were sent to St. Andrews University library.

The only Mundell I know of is David Mundell, the Dumfriesshire MP, the only Conservative member of parliament in Scotland.

Harry