Author Topic: Helen Greig Marriage to William Ross  (Read 39797 times)

Offline Portonian

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Re: Helen Greig Marriage to William Ross
« Reply #9 on: Tuesday 03 May 11 23:44 BST (UK) »

Hi Tidybooks

I have a copy of the Parish record of marriage between a Helen Greig and William Ross on the 16th September 1853  but I am told that this is not My great great grandfather nor my Great great grandmother by another researcher. The William who married Helen Greig is the Wm Ross born 21 August 1821.

Extract of record attached.

I have assumed that I am looking for a Helen Greig born circa 1838 and assumed from East Lothian.

Perhaps I am wrong in this assumption.



Scotskiwi


Offline Portonian

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Re: Helen Greig Marriage to William Ross
« Reply #10 on: Wednesday 04 May 11 00:11 BST (UK) »
Many thanks to all contributing.

I must admit it is doing my head in and I am very methodical and non plussed usually!

I have a ton of info regrading the line of Joan Hogg and William Ross, James Ross and Agnes Stocks and their ancestry including Joanna Crookston who's statue is in Tranent. That line is relatively easily researched as there are many researchers who have worked it.

I just seem to keep hitting dead ends. Guess it comes with the territory.

Appreciate the assistance.

I attach extract of my Great grandfathers marriage cert to Jane Marshall where his mothers name is cited as Helen Greig. I hope this is ok with board moderator.




Scotskiwi.

Offline Portonian

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Re: Helen Greig Marriage to William Ross
« Reply #11 on: Wednesday 04 May 11 00:31 BST (UK) »
And Extract of my grandfathers birth citing Jane Marshall as his mother, Wm Ross father.

Also birth of who I understand to be my grandfathers father, Wm Ross b : 21 Dec 1858 mother Helen Greig and Wm Ross

As I see it, Wm Ross b 7 sep 1886 was issue of Wm Ross b 21 dec 1858  and Jane Marshall b: 29 July 1859 with date of marriage  30 dec 1886.

I nned find detah certs of both my grandfather and great grandfather to resolve this matter I believe but have little info to go on re year of death or place. As I said, can't get into Scotlands People and my searches to date have been fruitless.

Scotskiwi

Offline Portonian

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Re: Helen Greig Marriage to William Ross
« Reply #12 on: Wednesday 04 May 11 00:46 BST (UK) »
For info

I have also done previous research on Helen Greig births in all of Scotland between 1820 and 1842 and only two have arisen in east Lothian .

HG born 6 Feb 1820 Tranent issue of Wm Greig and Isabel Donaldson
HG born 01 September 1822 Pencaitland issue of Hugh Greig and Euphemia Henderson

I can find no record of any marriage c 1855-58. between a William Ross b c1838 and Helen Greig which could give issue to great grandfather Wm Ross b: 21 dec 1858.



Scotskiwi


Offline Portonian

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Re: Helen Greig Marriage to William Ross
« Reply #13 on: Wednesday 04 May 11 01:18 BST (UK) »
I have just been sent this by a fellow family member. It is an extract of death certificate of William Ross born 1858, my great grandfather.

It shows his wife to be Jane Marshall and his mother to have been Helen Greig deceased and father William Ross deceased.

I believe this resolves status of line back to William and Helen but I still have the fundamental problem of who is this Helen Greig?

Offline tidybooks

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Re: Helen Greig Marriage to William Ross
« Reply #14 on: Wednesday 04 May 11 12:27 BST (UK) »
Hi Portonian,

I am interested in this as surnames are in my family tree but not the same people except John Coull and Christian Anderson. So all these Greigs, Marshalls, Donaldsons, Coulls, all make sense to me. I was raised in Cockenzie and Port Seton so familiar with 14 East Lorimer Place also. Here is what I have found.

Dwelling: High St   1881    Census Place:   Tranent, Haddington, Scotland
      Marr   Age   Sex   Birthplace
William ROSS   M   58    M   Cockenzie - Head   - Fisherman - born 21 Aug 1821
Ellen ROSS    M   61    F   Cockenzie – Wife – Helen Greig born 21 Jan 1820
Wm. ROSS   U   22    M   Cockenzie – Son – Fisherman born 21 Dec 1858
Margaret ROSS   U   20    F   Cockenzie – Daughter born 14 Dec 1860

William and Helen married 16 Sep 1853, so William 32yo and Helen 32yo at marriage.

Children of William Ross and Helen Greig
HELEN ROSS - Female Birth: 19 JAN 1856 Tranent, East Lothian, Scotland
DAVID ROSS - Male Birth: 29 MAY 1857 Tranent, East Lothian, Scotland
WILLIAM ROSS - Male Birth: 21 DEC 1858 Tranent, East Lothian, Scotland
MARGARET ROSS - Female Birth: 14 DEC 1860 Tranent, East Lothian, Scotland
By Scottish naming pattern, William Ross parents are David Ross and Margaret Jones
So Helen’s parents will be William Greig and Helen ?. Not this time.
Helen Greig’s parents were William Greig and Isabel Donaldson

Helen born 21 Jan 1820 christened 06 Feb 1820 Tranent Parish Church. Father was a Salter at this time. Parish church reference 16780

Tom
Scotland - Buchanan, Thomson, Pat(t)erson, Stewart, Ritchie, Tracey
Ireland - Tracey, Conroy, Pat(t)erson.

Offline AMBLY

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Re: Helen Greig Marriage to William Ross
« Reply #15 on: Wednesday 04 May 11 15:04 BST (UK) »
Hi

On the BDM documentation you have, which you know  is correct:
Your William ROSS b 1886 is the son of William ROSS, b abt 1858, a Cockenzie Fisherman and his wife, Jane (Jessie) MARSHALL. William ROSS (the father) b abt 1858  is himself the son of William ROSS & his wife Helen GREIG.

Census clearly show the couple, William & Helen ROSS -  1861 through to 1901 in Cockenzie. There can be little doubt this is your couple.  There are no other contenders so likely to be the family of your William b 1858. Their ages are consistent with William born abt 1823 Tranent and Helen b abt 1821 Tranent - she being a year or two older than he. He is a Cockenzie Fisherman throughout. In 1851 prior to his marriage, he is living on his own in Cockenzie. In 1881, their son William age 22 is in their household, some months before his own December marriage to Jessie MARSHALL.

On the other hand the William ROSS/Joan HOGG line are Colliers - not Fishermen. In 1851 - their son William b abt 1838 is at age 13 already a Coal Miner, listed as born Gladsmuir, Haddington. I lose this William after 1851. He may have moved away?

All in all, it would appear the baptism Tom found  "on 10 Sep 1821 of William Ross b 21 Aug 1821 Tranent Parish Church entry 16780, Parents  were David Ross and Margaret Jonnes (sic)" is that of your William ROSS, future husband of Helen GREIG.  The naming pattern  evident in William & Helen's children support this.

The IGI shows issue to the couple (all extracted records)
Helen ROSS b 19 Jan 1856, Tranent - William ROSS &  Helen GRIEG
David ROSS b 29 May 1857 Tranent - William ROSS &  Helen GRIEG
William ROSS b 21 Dec 1858 Tranent - William ROSS &  Helen GRIEG
Margaret ROSS b 14 Dec 1860 Tranent - William ROSS &  Helen GRIEG
(double up with Tom's prior post - but I'll leave in here to illustrate my ' ideas'  :D

These 4 children are on the Census.

I can't see any reason why the 1853 parish record of the marriage of William ROSS the Cockenzie Fisherman and Helen GREIG the  daughter of William GREIG, Cockenzie labourer is not yours?  If they aren't yours, then we have a) the 1853 married couple disappearing after the marriage and b) no marriage for the couple who had the children! Seems unlikely to me - what was the reason your were told the 1853 marriage is not your couple's?

For argument's sake accepting the 1853 marriage is your couple.....
.........since they married in Sep 1853,  one would think there would be a child born earlier than Helen in Jan 1856. Possibly there was one around 1854 and this child died, maybe near birth but at least before 1861. Or perhaps Helen did not give birth to a live child before 1856 (miscarriage, etc) . Compound this with the fact any child born before 1855 was pre- civil registration and no such circa 1854 birth is  found on the IGI for them. Many families only have their issue appear on the IGI after 1855 (often due to religion - ie: not  established CofS, or because the parish records were not filmed/incomplete pre -1855).

In naming pattern:
If  William ROSS (Helen's husband) was born 1821 son of David & Margaret - then William & Helen's first son should be "David"  and  2nd daughter "Margaret". Their  3rd son, would normally be called "William" after William himself. However, his wife Helen, has a father named "William" too, so their 2nd son should be called "William". So far the pattern looks right.

Then we have daughter Helen born 1856 - the first born daughter we know of.  Their first born daughter should be named after Helen's mother.  Therefore, if daughter Helen b 1856 was their first born, then  we might expect Helen ROSS nee GREIG to be the daughter of parents named William GREIG & Helen.  Actually, because of the positioning of the known children - I'd have to guess if there was a child born before Helen 1856, that the first child would have had to have been:
a) a boy named David (who died) and David b 1857 was named after him.
b) a girl named Helen (who died) and Helen b 1856 was named after her.
c) a girl named Margaret (who died) and Margaret b 1860 was named after her.
The latter c) would mean Helen's mother was also named  Margaret (as well as William's mother, Margaret Jones).

So in summary -  in my mind, Helen GREIG's mother is likley to be named either Helen or Margaret. The Scottish naming pattern is a tool, not always adhered to  - but often is & is invaluable!
Tom has found a likely mother for Helen as Isabel - so that's  interesting  and upsets my theorising    ;D;D. Helen's death cert will be interesting to see....

Both William & Helen are still living in 1901.
SP has a death in Tranent 1903 : Helen ROSS other surname GREIG, age recorded as 81

Cheers
AMBLY
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Offline Portonian

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Re: Helen Greig Marriage to William Ross
« Reply #16 on: Wednesday 04 May 11 15:30 BST (UK) »
Hi Tidy books

Thanks for this.

Still as clear as mud to me. Well not quite but there are some anomalies.

I think I will have to methodically go back through the line person by person and date by date exactly. I think I have enough info. I have tried SP re access again but there appears to be a wee prob with their secure payment servcic. It keeps dropping me.

The problem appears to be two William Ross's and their issue and dates if birth. Both fishermen and sons of fishermen marry two Helen Greigs.

I will review all info and post the conclusion hopefully when I establish which William Ross and which Helen Greig is who!

BTW Helen Greig (mother Isabel Donaldson) and her husband William died in 1903 within 9 months of each other. SD 722/00 0017



Scotskiwi.





Offline Portonian

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Re: Helen Greig Marriage to William Ross
« Reply #17 on: Wednesday 04 May 11 16:33 BST (UK) »
Hi Ambly

I concur with your fantastic research almost entirley.

Naming of first born sons in my line is as you say. William issue William issue William etc.

I have a note that the 1861 census lists William Ross (who married a Helen Greig) of the Hogg-Ross line as a fisherman. I agree with colliers being colliers etc but there's always self improvement LOL.

However I have to go back and double check this.

What I was told is as follows:

I never like to be the bearer of ill tidings, but I believe you have the wrong William Ross married to Helen Greig. The correct William Ross was my great, great grandfather. He was born in 1821 (Scotlands People O.P.R. Births 0722/0070 0028 Tranent) and died in 1903 (Scotlands People Statutory Deaths 0722/00 0094). This birth year is confirmed through Census records between 1851 and 1891. The one thing I don't have is a record of William and Helen's marriage. I have a completely different line of ancestors pre-dating William. If I can be of any further assistance, let me know.

This supports the William Ross (my great great grandfather advised b: 22 April 1838 by "Professional" genealogist) as not being from Hogg Ross line of course.

Guess I'll just have to start from scratch establishing the Ross line in that case.

From my perspective I have certainty that my grandfather was born 7 September 1886  and his parents were William Ross (Fisherman b 1858 d June 15 1941)) and Jane (Jessie) Marshall.

I therefore need establish his date of birth and his issue of Helen Greig and William Ross and ensure that they are the right ones. That's when it gets messy because there are two (at least, Helen Greigs and two William Ross's I am sure). Also we are dealing with PR's which don't have all the relevant dates info to ensure continuity of persons. That's where I have to go though.

I have evidence of two HG's born within two years of each other after all.

HG (of Ormiston parish) born 6 Feb 1820 Tranent issue of Wm Greig (A Salter) and Isabel Donaldson OPR 722/00 0070 0004

HG born 01 September 1822 Pencaitland issue of Hugh Greig (Ploughman)and Euphemia Henderson OPR 716/00 0030 0016

Strange that only one seems to appear in records after so I suspect that Pecaitland Helen died young or moved away because the death cert I have for Helen in 1903 states mother as Isabel Donaldson etc.

Crux to whole issue now is really what is the date of birth of Williamm Ross who married Jane Marshall and who are his parents?

The William Ross Joan Hogg or David Ross and Margaret?

There are no Margarets in my family tree as such and only one David I know of in three generations.

Extensive searching needed by me there.

The identified Helens have mothers called Isabel and Euphemia and we know whicvh one is in the records so the names thing doesn't work. I have a record of William Greig and Isabel Donaldson marriage on 8 November 1811 OPR 722/00 0060 0201 which aligns for Helen although there's nearly
10 years between her birth and marriage date. Maybe that would support an earlier sibling being named after her mother Isabel. 

Whatever, I probably have plenty to go on and just need get access to SP and sort it out.

I can use Ancestry for census stuff and I know that IGI has a Family page for the Ross Hoggs Crookston Stocks line.

Many thanks for your assistance in this. I really appreciate that members have taken the time to research and give freely of their time. If anyone is coming to New Zealand let me know. Always got space for a few. I am Auckland based.

regards


Scotskiwi