Author Topic: Death by drowning 1874. Any advice appreciated  (Read 20306 times)

Offline Maggie1895

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Re: Death by drowning 1874. Any advice appreciated
« Reply #18 on: Sunday 22 May 11 19:18 BST (UK) »
bearkat, I didn't have sight of the original, just the date, but thanks to you I do now!
I hadn't logged on during the week, work was in one of those 'exploding' phases,  but have had a wonderful time today exploring the St Michael's records for all my different Marden strands.
Whether Boys Simmons was born to a Staplehurst family who had their first son there, and then moved towards London, is an intruiging thought and is going to give me plenty more to try and follow up.   Not impossible by any means
Thank you so much for all your help and expertise
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Offline Priscilla95614

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Re: Death by drowning 1874. Any advice appreciated
« Reply #19 on: Tuesday 10 February 15 11:06 GMT (UK) »
Lovely idea but I don't think that's them.

Boys' mother was Hester Mary Simmons (her burial is in the St Michael list). Her baptism was on 17 December 1784 at Chatham in Kent
Her father was Boys Simmons, baptised in Marden on Christmas Day 1747 (her mother was Martha Barton)
Boys Simmon's father was also Boys Simmons, baptised 28 March 1734 (typo, that should read 1723) in Southwark - which is where we move back from Kent.  His mother was Hester, surname unknown
The earlier Boys Simmon's father was William Simmons, but from there we are getting into conjecture.   He stands out like a sore thumb (in my family anyway!) as on Boys' baptism records he is a 'gentleman' - and in my tree we don't get many of them to the pound!   
There is a baptism that could be William's in Shoreditch on 14 August 1692, and if it is 'my' William Simmons then  his parents were William Simmons and Elizabeth. 
If that is him, then you have 2 generations of Williams suddenly followed by 2 generations of Boys, which is what leads me to wonder if Elizabeth was Elizabeth Boys?   So far I've not managed to get any further in this, but brick walls in 1692 are always easier to live with thnat brick walls in the 1820s which is where some of my other lines stop.
The one thing I do know for sure is that the Simmons line, where the Boys name originates, moves out of Kent and goes back to London in the earlier half of the 1700s.

p.s.
actually on second thoughts that doesn't preclude the 1717 Staplehurst marriage - the fact they have one son baptised in 1718 in Kent doesn't stop them having a second baptised 6 years later in Southwark - oh lord don't these things get complicated!  Thanks for the lead, I will follow it up

I have been researching the Marden Simons for a number of years and I have recently found out where the Boys Simons name came from, it comes from the grandmother of Boys Simons Born 1723,
Mary Boys, she married William Simons, 1655, the son and heir of Edward Simons, 1626-1676, Gentleman of Marden and his wife Ann Maplisden also of Marden, Edward and Ann married in St Mary Magdalene, Old Fish street, London, 28/10/1647.
William Simons, B 1655, married Mary Boys the daughter of Samuel Boys of Hawkhurst, Kent and Philadelphia Parker, daughter of Sir Thomas Parker and Philadelphia Lennard, the daughter of Sir Henry Lennard, Lord Dacre of the South and Chysigona Baker.  at the Parish Church of Hawkhurst, Kent, on the 10th of January 1687,  they had 4 children, Philadelphia Simons, 1689,  Jane Simons, 1695, Edward Simons, 1696 and William Simons, 1703, all born in Marden, Kent.
Philadelphia never married, Jane died at 22, Edward married Hester Chilman, he died in 1740 when Hester was pregnant with their second child, Mary Simons B 1740,  the widow Hester Simons nee Chilman then married Edward's nephew Boys Simons, B 1723 son of William Simons B 1703 and Elizabeth unknown, in 1743 and had the 4 children with him.
I found the marriage of William Simons B 1655, of Marden, Kent, to Mary Boys in the "Platagenet Roll, The Blood Royal" Mary Boys descends from King Edward the third, through his second son Lionel of Antwerp and Lionel's granddaughter Lady Elizabeth Percy nee Mortimer. through the Lennard line.
She also descends from the the Spencer's through the third wife of Sir Nicholas Parker, Catherine Temple, whose mother was Susan Spencer, Susan Spencer and John Temple were the 11th great grandparents of Lady Diana Spencer, there are many titled people in Mary's family lines which make it easier to search.
I have the wills for Edward Simons, Gent, D 1676, his granddaughter Philadelphia Simons, Spinster, D 1742, grandson Edward Simons, D 1740, the daughter and son of Mary Boys, also Hester Simons nee Chilman, D 1783, the wife of both Edward Simons D 1740 and his nephew Boys Simons, these are obtainable from the Marden Historical society and have been a great help with my research in tying these people together
The marriage of William Simons 1655, and Mary Boys can be found at Familysearch, Hawkhurst,Kent, 10 January 1687

Google : The Plantagenet Roll of the Blood Royal The Mortimer-Percy Volume,     Descendants of Philadelphia Parker married at Willingdon 1 February 1649, Samuel Boys of Hawkhurst, 1a to 7a, on page 518,  they had 1 son and 6 daughters, Mary Boys is 5a, on page 520.
There are heaps of trees, tombs and paintings online for Mary's ancestors.


Offline miriamkinga

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Re: Death by drowning 1874. Any advice appreciated
« Reply #20 on: Tuesday 10 February 15 11:26 GMT (UK) »
Article in the Whitstable Times & Herne Bay Herald 21/02/1874 - poor man fell in a stream on his way home from the pub. Someone heard him crying for help but thought they were shouting for "Alf". He was found the next morning  :(
GOATER, LAN, ALL
BOURKE, MAYO/ LAN
LONERGAN, TIP
McGREAL, MAYO
FLAHERTY, GALWAY/ ALL
HOUGH, LAN/ ALL

Offline bearkat

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Re: Death by drowning 1874. Any advice appreciated
« Reply #21 on: Tuesday 10 February 15 11:50 GMT (UK) »
That's very sad.

I'm glad you found the newspaper report.
Middx - VAUS, ROBERTS, EVERSFIELD, INMAN, STAR, HOLBECK, WYATT, BICKFORD, SMITH, REDWOOD
Hants - SMALL, HAMMERTON, GRIST, FRYER, TRODD, DAGWELL, PARKER, WOODFORD, CROUTEAR, BECK, BENDELL, KEEPING, HARDING, BULL
Kent - BAYLY, BORER, MITCHELL, PLANE, VERNON, FARRANCE, CHAPMAN, MEDHURST, LOMAX, WYATT, IDEN
Devon - TOPE, BICKFORD, FOSTER
YKS - QUIRK, McGUIRE, BENN
Nott/Derbs - SLACK
Herts - BARNES
L'pool- PLUMBE
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Offline easternHammer

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Re: Death by drowning 1874. Any advice appreciated
« Reply #22 on: Wednesday 27 April 16 17:23 BST (UK) »
I have a theory which seems to differ slightly from that put forward in the replies thus far, regarding the decent of Hester Mary Simons.
I agree Hester's parents to be Boys Simons and Martha Barton from Marden Kent.
Boys Simons'parents in turn are Boys Simons and Hester (Chilman). My point is that this second Boys Simons is not the Boys Simons b1723 in Southwark,but in fact is the brother of an Edward Simons who was Hester's first husband. In the Will off Edward Simons is mentioned this younger brother 'Boyce Simons' which given the age of Hester (b 1708) It seems far more logical that the widow would marry her brother in law than a much younger nephew. The church register of the marriage is no clearer as it just names the parties so it could equally apply to either Boys.
The parents of Edward and Boys Simons were of course William Simons & Mary Boys which is the start of all these BOYS!!!

Offline Priscilla95614

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Re: Death by drowning 1874. Any advice appreciated
« Reply #23 on: Friday 29 April 16 07:09 BST (UK) »
The Boys Simons mentioned in Edward Simons will was his nephew Boys, son of Edward's brother William and his wife Elizabeth.
The nephew Boys was to be Edward's heir if he had no sons, Edward's wife Hester gave birth to another girl, Mary, after the death of her husband, so there was no male heir for Edward.
The nephew Boys did marry his uncle's widow in 1743, probably so that he could protect and access his inheritance.
Boys was 20 years old and Hester was about 35, I have proof of this marriage in the form of Boys, Hester and their daughter Philadelphia's memorials in the Marden Church, there are 3 identical memorials with the Simons Family crest on the top, one is for Boys and Hester's daughter Philadelphia, it say's, In Memory of Philadelphia Simons daughter of Boys and Hester Simons of this parish, who departed this life January 26th 1759 aged 14 years
There is one for Boys, it reads, In Memory of Boys Simons Gent, late of this parish, he died October 24 1772, aged 49 years,  Left issue one son and two daughters, Boys, Elizabeth and Jane.
And the third one is for Hester Simons ne Chilman, hers reads, In memory of Hester wife of Boys Simons, Gent, who died September 10 1783, aged 75 years,  left issue, Boys, Hester, Mary, Elizabeth and Jane.  Philadelphia had died so she wasn't mentioned, only the children living at the time of the parents deaths. Boys is mentioned first he because he was the heir.
I sent for photo's of the memorials and inscriptions from the Marden Historical Society and they sent me a CD of the photo's and inscriptions, they have been a big help with my research into my Simons ancestors, the photo's of Boys, Hester and their daughter Philadelphia's wall memorials are beautiful, Boys had become the senior Simons, so he was entitled to use the Simons Family Crest, the extended Simons family are buried under the floor of the church, there were some photo's of the grave plaques included, they are well worth sending for if you get the chance.

Offline Maggie1895

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Re: Death by drowning 1874. Any advice appreciated
« Reply #24 on: Friday 29 April 16 19:21 BST (UK) »
I am absolutely stunned.   I posted my original query several years ago, and (as always on Rootschat) had some great help and advice.   For all sorts of reasons including a fairly recent bereavement I've been off line for quite a while. 
Recently I had notifications in my inbox that there were new replies.      I can't believe what I've been reading, particularly from Priscilla (and that doesn't mean I dispute what you've written, just that it's so hard to comprehend the amount of information being given on what I thought was a brick wall.) 
It's going to take me a while to get my head round all this new information, particularly the fact that the line appears to be traceable so far back.
Oddly enough, my mother, who was very fond of her own grandmother, Boys Spicer's daughter Mary Ann, always maintained she'd been told we were descended somehow from the Percys (Harry Hotspur and that ilk).   
It seems I owe my mother and my grandmother apologies, but also I owe a massive thank you to Priscilla, to whom I must be related in some way or other, and to EasternHammer for all this new information.
At the moment I'm still wading through all the process and the paperwork that sadly follows someone's death, but as soon as I get time I'm going to be going through all this in detail.
Thank you everyone. x
   
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Offline Priscilla95614

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Re: Death by drowning 1874. Any advice appreciated
« Reply #25 on: Sunday 01 May 16 03:15 BST (UK) »
My condolences Maggie on the death in your family, it seems that we are probably 1st cousins many times removed, I am an Australian descendant of Boys sister Philadelphia, born about 1729 and her husband Thomas Sharp, through their daughter Priscilla Elizabeth Sharp, b 1768, Philadelphia was my 5th Great Grandmother.
It seems that the descendants of Philadelphia Simons also had been told stories of a Great Grandmother Lady Elizabeth and were aware of their Royal Heritage, although it seems the stories changed over time.
Some of Philadelphia's descendants emigrated to Australia in the 1850's and later,  some went to NSW and some to Victoria, the Victorian lot were Dairy Farmers.
I have had a ball researching our Royal ancestors, because of their strategic marriages we actually descend from 3 of King Edward the 3rd's sons, as well as Lionel of Antwerp, we also descend from John of Gaunt and Thomas of Woodstock, many of our ancestors were executed or died in battle.

Offline easternHammer

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Re: Death by drowning 1874. Any advice appreciated
« Reply #26 on: Thursday 12 May 16 08:29 BST (UK) »
Maggie 1895, You have my deepest condolences, bereavement is a difficult time. My father passed away four years ago, he was a historian so I'm sure he's quite amused with his ancestry.
Priscilla95614, I understand the Nephew theory but still retain a little doubt as to why Edward Simons uses the expression in his will as"unto my brother Boyce Simons".  Also given Edward had no male heirs then why did he neglect his brother William. The standard custom would have been to pass property down to siblings Male in absence of any male issue. http://cdn.rootschat.com/forum/Smileys/classic/huh.gif
I haven't seen any of the church memorials so thats something I'll have to chase up at some stage. Thanks for the tip.http://cdn.rootschat.com/forum/Smileys/classic/smiley.gif
Philadelphia Simons who married Thomas Sharp is our shared ancester, also being my 5 x Grt Grandmother! Through her daughter Philadelphia, Priscilla's elder sister. So it would seem we're quite close.