Author Topic: Death by drowning 1874. Any advice appreciated  (Read 20304 times)

Offline Priscilla95614

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Re: Death by drowning 1874. Any advice appreciated
« Reply #27 on: Friday 13 May 16 13:35 BST (UK) »
Hi easterHammer, I got my transcribed copy of Edward Simons 1740 will from the Marden History Group, my copy states unto my Nephew Boyse Simons and the heirs of his body and so on forever.
The will says if Edward had no male heir Edward's wife Hester would have the estate for the rest of her life then her daughters and any issue they may have, for want of such issue the estate would go to my nephew Boyse Simons.
Edward leaves large sums of money to his Chilman relatives and twelve pounds to his sister Philadelphia for mourning clothes, there is no mention of his brother William that I can see, which is strange.
I have received five Simons wills from the history group, in Edward Simons spinster sister Philadelphia's will dated 1742, she leaves two farms to her brother William for his natural life then they would go to his daughter, Philadelphia and her heirs forever, if she died before inheriting it would go to William's son Edward, if he died before inheriting it would go to William's son Boys, Philadelphia's niece and nephews, it's an interesting one to read.
Did you get your copy of Edwards will from the Marden History Group, they have been very helpful in sending me the wills via email and putting together a CD of the Memorials and inscriptions and sending it by post to Australia.
I am very interested in your being a descendant of Priscilla's older sister Philadelphia, I know a bit about her, who she married and where, I believe she also ended up living in Plumstead, Kent, Priscilla married a John Hopgood and a large family, she also used the names Philadelphia Simons and Boys Simons for two of her children, Priscilla was my Great Grandfathers Great Grandmother, he emigrated to Victoria, Australia in 1875 from Plumstead when he was 17 years old and went on to have a large family, 14 children. 

Offline easternHammer

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Re: Death by drowning 1874. Any advice appreciated
« Reply #28 on: Sunday 15 May 16 05:14 BST (UK) »
Hi Priscilla95614
Interesting, I downloaded copies of Edward Simoms 1740, Philadelphia Simons 1742, Hester Simons 1783, Boys Simons 1854, and Edward Simons 1680 Wills from the Ancestry site. I guess these are the 5 transcripts you have obtained ?
I've always had a healthy disrespect for transcribed documents, something my father always said about using primary sources first. However in saying that, I think my own transcription has failed me!!As I consult the original document it looks to me the word is more likely Nephew!!
All which makes Edward Simons 1740 Will quite interesting.
The impression I get from the Will of Edward Simons 1740 are first his concern that the child his wife is carrying maybe a boy. Thus quite alot of the Will seems concerned with this, then secondly as you say he is quite lavish in terms of his in laws the Chilmans, and all but for almost a token jesture to his sister Philadelphia and no mention of William. The guardian for his chiildren are Stephen Chilman and Reuben Baldwin (Hester's uncle). I can't help but get a sense of a slight rift between the family.
Looking at Philadelphia's Will I get a sense of someone who is quite prim and proper, convident but also a bit conceited. Being a single woman at this time, seemingly controlling lands and a degree of wealth and fine old family connections, and through her Will I get a image of quite a strong character and not someone easily crossed. Initially I thought the part where she describes Hester the widow of Edward as her sister Simons the relict of her late brother Edward and goes on to leave her 5 pounds for mourning but nothing if she doesn't board with her at the time, as being quite spitful but considering brother Edward's Will it is almost a reply to what she felt as being a little insulting on Edward or indeeds Hester's part.
Philadelphia spreads her assets across the family but particularly to young brother William and more so neice Philadelphia above all other relations. So I think these two Wills in particular throw up quite a few interesting points!!
Turning to our Philadelphia as you know she married into the Sharpe family and among her children was Philadelphia and sister Priscilla.
Philadelphia went on to marry young James Gardiner and as you say, on to Plumstead. I also think her youngest brother Bishop Sharp and eldest brother Thomas Sharp also went initially to reside in Plumstead/Woolwich region.
A question remains as to why she married into the Gardiner's as they aren't from Marden.The Sharp's appear to be from around the Sussex/Kent border region. In quite a short space of time this particular branch of SIMONS family seems to have travelled from Land owners managing farms and orchards etc to people who are employed for a living.
The Gardiners remaind in the Plumstead/Woolwich region right up to the modern era. My father only emigrating to Australia with young family in 1967!

Offline Priscilla95614

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Re: Death by drowning 1874. Any advice appreciated
« Reply #29 on: Wednesday 18 May 16 13:46 BST (UK) »
Hi easternhammer, those are the 5 will copies that I have and I agree with your impressions of the kind of people that they were and what was important to them, Aunt Philadelphia leaves her mother, Mary Boys childbed linen to her niece Philadelphia, as well as a ring with her sister Jane's hair, Jane Simons died on the 21st of February 1724, her brother William and his wife Elizabeth had a son born after Boys in 1723, Edward was born in 1724, he died aged 2 years in 1726 and was buried with his Aunt Jane, William and Elizabeth then had another son in 1727 and gave him the name Edward.
Philadelphia's nephew Boys gets a few bits and pieces in the will as well as a picture of her mother, Mary Boys, that picture is later handed on to Mary Simons by her mother Hester, I would love to see it, I wonder who ended up with it.
With regard to the Sharp family I found a will of a John Sharpe of Northiam in the County of Sussex,
1683, Probate 1687, he has sons John and Thomas, as well as land in Northiam he has property in Sandhurst, I thought that he may be the ancestor of our Sharpe's.
 My 4th Great grandmother Priscilla Elizabeth Sharp was born in Sandhurst in 1768, she married John Hopgood born Staplehurst, B 1764, in All Saints, Maidstone, on the 2nd of February 1784, she was 16 and he was 20, that's very young, I have to wonder about that one, they had 11 children, John Hopgood, Marden, 1785, Thomas Hopgood, Staplehurst, 1788, Priscilla Hopgood, Boughton Monchelsea, 1791, Philadelphia Simmons Hopgood, Marden, 1794, Robert Hopgood, Boughton, Monchelsea, 1796, Samuel Hopgood, Boughton, Monchelsea, 1798, Mary Anne Hopgood, Boughton, Monchelsea, 1800, Boyce Simmons Hopgood, Boughton, 1806. Elizabeth Etherington Hopgood, Boughton, 1806, died 7 months, Sarah Etherington Hopgood, Boughton, 1808, died in Plumstead 1809 at 19 months, Caroline Hopgood, Woolwich, 1814.
Priscilla Elizabeth Hopgood ne Sharpe died in 1840 and was buried St Nicholas, Deptford, her son Samuel, B 1798 emigrated to Victoria in 1849 with his second wife and their daughter, his older son Samuel, born to his first wife, along his family joined him in 1854, they had a Dairy Farm at Duck Pond near Lara outside Geelong, Victoria.
Priscilla Elizabeth's daughter Priscilla Hopgood was my 4x Great grandmother, she married Charles Jenner, their oldest son Charles Jenner, 1812, sailed for Sydney Australia with his wife and children aboard the Java in November 1852 arriving in Sydney in April 1853, this journey was horrific, many died, about 40, mainly children, there is a diary online for this voyage,
Priscilla's youngest daughter Eliza Jenner married William Jones, their son Major Jones was my Great grandfather, he came out to Victoria in 1875, he went to live and work on his mothers Hopgood relatives Dairy Farm at Duck Pond, he later became a Butcher and raised a large family in Warracknabeal.
I am very interested in your families history also, your family are a fairly new arrivals to Australia, there are now many of us descendants of my Great Grandfather Major Jones living in Australia and New Zealand.
The next item I want to send for from the Marden History Group, is a 1732 Marriage Settlement of Edward Simons, I think that would be very informative, that would involve his marriage to Hester Chilman I would say.

Offline easternHammer

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Re: Death by drowning 1874. Any advice appreciated
« Reply #30 on: Thursday 19 May 16 07:59 BST (UK) »
Alot of information Priscilla95614,
Looking back through the thread I think we're drifting away from Maggie's original line a bit so I think it would be easier to follow separate subject threads for our "SHARPE" family of Sandhurst and again separate the "Hopgood" line. etc
The basic line of 'Boys Spicer' Maggie's 2 x Grt Grand Father who unfortunately drowned, now if we follow the origin of 'Boys' name then the trail is thought to go as follows:
Boys Spicer is the son of Hester Mary (nee SIMONS) and William SPICER who married in Staplehurst 1806.
Hester Mary SIMONS in turn was the daughter of Boys SIMONS and Martha BARTON married in Marden 1773
Boys SIMONS was the son of Boys SIMONS and Hester SIMONS (Hester having previously been married to Edward SIMONS) Boys and Hester were married in Southwark, London 1743
Hester previous marriage to Edward SIMONS in Hunton Kent 1732. Hester surname is CHILMAN Edward died Marden 1740
The "Boys" who married Hester is thought to be Edward SIMONS nephew (?) Boys parents are William SIMONS and Elizabeth. I believe her name to be PARKER. Married Sholden 1723
Which finally leads us to William's parants William SIMONS and Mary BOYS! Married Hawkhurst 1687
Priscilla95614 and myself connect around this stage. Through Philadelphia SIMONS the daughter of William SIMONS and Elizabeth PARKER
It is then through Mary BOYS that the line connects up with the research in the Plantagent Roll publication which attempts to plot the links to Edward III Plantagent.http://cdn.rootschat.com/forum/Smileys/classic/smiley.gif
Turning to Priscilla95614 last remarks on SIMONS link I noticed the marriage settlement document on the Marden History Group site and I think it would be interesting but by nature it is going to be more concernd with Property transaction and probably no mention of Edward's brother William. The portrait of Mary BOYS mentioned in the Will's would indeed be a remarkable thing to see. Since it went down to Mary SIMON I doubt it remained in the SIMONS family, but nice to imagine it somewhere in someones attic. \(- v-)/



Offline Maggie1895

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Re: Death by drowning 1874. Any advice appreciated
« Reply #31 on: Friday 20 May 16 20:03 BST (UK) »
I really can't thank you both, and everyone else on this thread, enough.  For the two of you, Priscilla and easterHammer, not just for the information, but also for your kind messages.  I've been off the board for some time, I retired earlier than originally planned, my husband cut down his work abroad, we moved house south to be nearer family and then, 7 weeks ago, my husband died suddenly and very unexpectedly.  I'm now planning to downsize and move again, probably within the next couple of months.
Life happens.  We all know that.   I have a lot of things I need to do, but not much that I want to do or am particularly looking forward to doing, so working through all the information this thread has given me is going to be my treat to myself whenever I can.
I'm still a bit shocked by the connection to the Plantagenet roll - I've always been happy to come from a long line of nobody in particular (though special to me) with absolutely no gateway ancestor within miles.    This is my mother's side of the family, and my father's is pure Scot with family traditions taking us back to one of the many 'wrong side of the blanket' children of The Bruce.    If Edward II really comes into it the idea that the family might have been on both sides at Bannockburn is a bit disconcerting, to say the least...
On the other hand, John of Gaunt and Richard III have always been quite heroic to me, and I read everything I can get my hands on about the Plantagenets and have always the ramifications of Edward III's children and the steps towards the Cousins' Wars fascinating, so it's really exciting.   
Looking at my own tree as far as I had got, the difference to all your information is first and very minor, the name, which I have variously as Simons or Simmons.   I had got the Spicers, and Mary Barton, and gone back to Hester Chilman and her marriage to Boys Simmons,.  There the difference comes in.   I had Hester's father as Stephen Chilman, b 1680 but no note of her mother.
Boys' parents (this is her husband Boys, who I had as b 1723 in Southwark) I have down as the son of William Simmons and 'Elizabeth'.   Elizabeth was work in progress, with possible candidates noted as Ellizabeth Boys or Elizabeth Hughes.    I can't remember at this distance why I had those two surnames for candidates, but going back to that brick wall (it was a brick well for me if not for you) and looking at it in the light of all the information you two have provided is going to give me many interesting hours when I've had enough of downsizing my possessions.   
I'm really interested to see so many mentions of the name Philadelphia.    In the family tree/story book I made for my children a few Christmases ago, I mentioned that my favourite names in the ancestors I had found were Titus Spicer and Philadelphia Simmons or Simons.    That Philadelphis had died age 15, and as far as I remember was buried in St Michael's in Marden.
So much for that line centres around Marden.    My gr.grandfather (different line of my mother's) originally watchmaker/jeweller was the first PostMaster there, and his daughter, my much loved Great Aunt, carried on the post office until she retired at the end of the war.   Seems there was so much more history for us there than ever of us ever realised...
Thank you both again.
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Offline easternHammer

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Re: Death by drowning 1874. Any advice appreciated
« Reply #32 on: Sunday 22 May 16 11:18 BST (UK) »
Words are never enough but time does help. It's the lows in life which make one fully realise the highs. Their is still goodness and beauty to be found in the world even in our daily lives. I would argue also that within our own family trees are many tales or sadness and tragedy where somehow our ancestors just kept battling through. Their is a strength to be gained from their struggles. The grand titles are fine and leave big footprints in history but it is the mass under represented in history that had to battle all their lives which I've always found more interest from. To state the obvious these lives are our own ancestors the decisions and consequences they faced ultimately flow into our own lives and are part of our make up.
I recall the fine statue in Westminister of Richard the Lion Heart! I had a great children's storybook all about the heroic King. But in real life the Plantagenets were quite a ruthless brunch, more concerned with power and conquest. Richard spent the whole time fighting wars on foreign shores did nothing for the running of England. As for Edward II I'm sure the Welsh and Scots will have quite a different view!! However Edward III is regarded as the best of the Plantagenets and although like all Plantagenets spent time making War particularly against the French, he also did stay and administer the country and see charges in laws and administration which ultimately did improve the lives of many. Histroy has recorded him as a good King.
I take the point about Bannockburn, it is typical of what genealogy can throw up. The reality of war and conflicts is that it isn't black and white, good and bad, Victorious and defeated. That really it is loss on both sides. Again I think it is one of the beauties of Genealogy.
As for Hester's line...I can add a little if you wish to follow this line. Hester's brother was also called Stephen Chilman the same as the father, so no surprises in Hester's mother's name..It is Hester! her maiden name is Baldwin. How I know, comes from the Will of Edward Simons hester's first husband made in 1740. In it Edward bequeathed most of the family assets to his wife's family the Chilmans and mentioned Hester's brother amongst others as a Stephen Chilman. He also mentioned an uncle reuben Baldwin. So I was curious to find who the this uncle was..and after digging around found the Will of a Reuban Baldwin which seemed to match. It is a great will and I would recommend you have a look at it if your looking at Hester's line. The reason why it is so good for us if not for Reuben Baldwin is that he never married and neither had living children at the time so he bequeathed everything amongst his siblings, nephews and nieces. So he goes through and names all those living at the time. So its a great document for learning about the 'Baldwins' of which Hester senior was one, being the sister of Reuben.
I think the Simons  were quite a strong land owning family in the region of Marden for many years which was past on down through the Spicers, so indeed you have a long association with Marden.
Even with our 'SIMONS' connection I have to admit I'm curious to visit the town someday.


Offline Mowsehowse

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Re: Death by drowning 1874. Any advice appreciated
« Reply #33 on: Monday 20 June 16 10:13 BST (UK) »
Maggie, I am so sorry for your loss.

I have no personal interest, but this is a fascinating thread..... someone may wish to follow up on this enquiry perhaps?
http://wwwer.genealogy.com/forum/surnames/topics/spicer/1272/  <

Best wishes to all.
Oh! p.s. Anyone interested in John of Gaunt may wish to read "Katherine" by Anya Seton.
BORCHARDT in Poland/Germany, BOSKOWITZ in Czechoslovakia, Hungary + Austria, BUSS in Baden, Germany + Switzerland, FEKETE in Hungary + Austria, GOTTHILF in Hammerstein + Berlin, GUBLER, GYSI, LABHARDT & RYCHNER in Switzerland, KONIG & KRONER in Germany, PLACZEK, WUNSCH & SILBERBERG in Poland.

Also: ROWSE in Brixham, Tenby, Hull & Ramsgate. Strongman, in Falmouth. Champion. Coke. Eame/s. Gibbons. Passmore. Pulsever. Sparkes in Brixham & Ramsgate. Toms in Cornwall. Waymoth. Wyatt.

Offline gogogadgetlegs

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Re: Death by drowning 1874. Any advice appreciated
« Reply #34 on: Saturday 02 July 16 14:30 BST (UK) »
Hi, Sent you a personal message,
Phil
Lincolnshire,   Andrew/s Jenkinson, 
Yorkshire,   Andrew/s, Watson, Norris, Simpson, Binnington, Willingham, Theakston, Kingdom, Brown, Fewson, Croforth, Boynton/Bointon, Jenkinson, Crawford/Croforth, Hessey, Harper, Mann, Worledge, Flatman.
Kent, Kingdom, Cosham,
Norfolk,   Worlidge, Flatman, Alden, West, Kett, Gathercole. Starkey
Suffolk,   Wallage, Worledge, Starkey
Nth Battleford, Canada, Worledge, Flatman
Devon, Kingdom, Sparkes Morrish, Rumley, Westcott, Pleace
o
Census Info Crown Copyrig

Offline Maggie1895

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Re: Death by drowning 1874. Any advice appreciated
« Reply #35 on: Sunday 10 July 16 08:01 BST (UK) »
All I seem to do at present is grab a few moments to come onto the board occasionally (now selling and buying homes under different legal systems, packing up, downsizing and moving house) - and when I get on here I have little to say except 'thank you', but all the information and help is so appreciated.  Once I've actually moved I am so looking forward to getting to grips with it all.

Priscilla and easternHammer, thank you both again for so much information, and your kind words

Phil, I've read your message and emailed you - thank you again.

Mowsehowse - thank you.  Have to admit that when the earlier posts by Priscilla and easterHammer told me that there was a link to John of Gaunt it gave me a shock, as Anya Seton's Katherine is a book I first read when about 12 or 13 and he's been a bit of a hero for me ever since.   Throw in the 'this scepter'd isle...' speech and the thought there might be a legitimate line all the way back to him was a stunner.
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