polish ancestors surnames?

[Kevwood]

Hi, i am trying to help my cousin with her research.

Her grandfather was known as George Harris in the censuses it says born Poland.

I managed to find naturalization papers for him and she ordered them.

So we know he was Joachim Hesel place of birth Posan in c.1836

I have looked into it and cannot find out if that would be posan(poznan) city or district.  Would it mean the city itself or just the district as that is huge and could have been anywhere.

Another question i have is that on his marriage certificate it says father Benjamin harris(painter and decorator). Is George harris a direct translation of Joachim Hesel and if so can we apply that to Benjamin to get a name?

Is it possible to get birth records if we do not know exact place of birth.

Any advice would be great.

Kev.

Ps Have checked out your links Bob, very useful but cannot find anybody with the surname Hesel on any of them.

[ryan]

Posen is a region (like a County/Province) in Poland near Silesia, which is also home to a town with the same name. Silesia is also in Poland. My Great Grandmother Hildergard Manthei was from Posen and her husband's family (my Nan's family, Foelke) were from Oels in Silesia. It can be quite confusing to find any info or decent maps of Posen, as it was part of Germany before the Treaty of Versailles was dictated after WW1. Posen, Silesia and several other regions were seeded to what we now call Poland.

Posen is the German name for the region, and Poznan is the Polish name. Centuries ago the region was called Wielkopolska which means 'Greater Poland'. Posen was, and still is one of the richer, more greater-developed regions of Poland.

Hope this helps

Ryan.

[Kevwood]

Thanks for that Ryan.

So do you think that if you stated place of birth as posen it would be the city rather than the region?

Kev.

[ryan]

Hi Kev.
I would imagine that stating Posen as POB would refer to the city. I cannot be 100% certain though. Ask yourself the same question Kev, you may give yourself a more reliable answer

Good luck.

Ryan.

[thebristolian]

Hello Kev, your post is really old, so this may not reach you.  However, I've been looking for Joachim Hesel (aka George Harris) but have only just come across the naturalization papers in the national archive and thence found the correct spelling.  He was my Great Great grandfather.  Family legend always had it that he left Prussia, stowed away on a boat when he was 14 and ended up in Bristol.  Looks as if that's more or less true.  Have been told that the chances of finding any papers from the Jewish community in Poland are slim.  Other bits of family legend are that he gave a window to the sinagogue in Park Row, in Bristol and that he became a Freeman of the City.  None yet verified, since it takes so much time.  Do hope to hear from you.

[Matt R]

Although I am not a relation I too have a relative stating his place of birth as Poznan/Posen, and on one occasion the same man states Prussia. I have a feeling Poznan/Posen refers to the city itself but I am as miffed as you are as to whether it refers to the region.

Oddly enough, the same relative chose to settle in Bristol. Maybe he and Joachim Hesel knew each other? His name was Moses Wertheim and he was also Jewish. He was friends with the Platnauer family (jewellers and watchmakers) who actually had the synagogue in Park Row built in the early 1870's.

So indirectly it is possible our ancestors knew OF each other though the synagogue. I've yet to find proof Moses practised. But interesting nevertheless. Moses was born c1806 in Poznan and came to Bristol c1835-7 due to persecution by Prussian and Russian forces.

Hope this helps,

Reayboy.

[thebristolian]

George Harris seems to have "married out" but maintained a connection with the Park Row synagogue.  (The window mentioned in previous post, but I have never been able to verify that.)  He was, however, buried in the Jewish Cemetery in St. Philips, in Bristol.  George was a bit later than your ancestor, coming to England in 1849 at the age of 14.  Very possibly he already knew someone here; he doesn't appear on the 1851 census, and I have always imagined that he had not yet regularized his status and was staying with someone and keeping a low profile. 
Do you know if the Platnauer family changed their name?  It's a very big leap, but George Parsons, the Jeweller, was one of his sponsors for naturalisation in 1869 and I wonder if their connection was the synagogue.  Will try to find out.

[ladywales]

Out of interest , have you got any further with connections for George Harris.. I have noticed on the photograph of the birth stone that has been posted online , this isn't the same person .. dated 1891.. also he isn't buried in Bristol , there is a huge family shrine in Somerset I believe,but he isn't there either

[DavidM]

Post #6 asks whether the Platnauer family (watchmakers and jewellers in Bristol) changed their surname.  There is no simple answer because different branches did different things but the simple answer is "No".  My 2x great grandfather was George Platnauer one of the four "Platnauer Brothers".  My great grandmother, Charlotte Platnauer, who married in 1888, did not need to quote her maiden name much but after WW1 spelt it "Platner" to sound a bit less German.  And I think that one branch of the family used "Platt" from some time during WW2 when one of them was working in military intelligence.

As far as "Harris" is concerned, all I can offer is that one of George Platnauer's granddaughters, Joyce Platnauer, married a David Harris in South Africa.