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Author Topic: Sandys / Speer / Litchfield  (Read 2228 times)

Offline ThamesDitton

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Sandys / Speer / Litchfield
« on: Tuesday 31 May 11 17:37 BST (UK) »
For local history purposes I'm researching Sandys / Speers / Litchfields who were domiciled in London/Middlesex and in or near Thames Ditton Surrey. Feel free to move this post to London/Middx if more appropriate there than Surrey.

I have Hannibal Sandys b 1794 London to Hannibal Sandys b 1763 x Ann Hill. Hannibal the elder and Ann Hill had (at least) one further child, Richard Hill Sandys b abt 1801.
Q1: Any others?

Younger Hannibal married Cecilia Speer in 1825 and they had (at least) 3 children:
Hannibal Sandys (b abt 1826 d as Hannibal Speer 1915 - changed surname by royal warrant in 1871 to meet conditions of Wm. Speer's will)
Mary Katherine Speer Sandys (?dob)
Edward Frederick Sandys b about 1833
Q2: any others?

Hannibal the elder and Hannibal the younger were in the same law firm(s). Hannibal the elder died 1847, outliving his son who died 1835.
Q3: what was the cause of death of Hannibal d.1835?

Concerning Edward Frederick Sandys who married in Reigate in 1871:
Q4: what was the name of his spouse?
Q5: children and dob?

Frederick Shirley Litchfield married Cecilia Sandys, granddaughter of Cecilia Speer(qv) in 1902 and added the surname Speer to conform with Wm Speer's will.
Q6: Am I correct in assuming that Cecilia the granddaughter was the daughter of Edward Frederick Sandys?

Help gratefully received.



Offline kmart66

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Re: Sandys / Speer / Litchfield
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday 31 May 11 18:07 BST (UK) »
Hi

Q4
Marriane Porter 1871 Q2 Reigate, Surry

Q5 (taken from 81/91 census)
Marrianne Francis Cecilia Sandys
Edward C H Sandys
Mary Ethel Sandys
Amy Maud Sandys
Edith Katherine Sandys
Violet Speer Sandys

Kevin
Brightlingsea families
Martin, Day, Frostick, Salmon

faber est quisque fortunae suae


Offline ThamesDitton

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Re: Sandys / Speer / Litchfield
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday 31 May 11 19:29 BST (UK) »
Many thanks - it would appear that Marrianne Francis Cecilia Sandys is the likely Cecilia Sandys who married Litchfield Q6)

Offline genial

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Re: Sandys / Speer / Litchfield
« Reply #3 on: Friday 17 February 12 06:46 GMT (UK) »
Have just come across your posting re above families in Thames Ditton.  While not directly related I have an interest in this family. 

Mary Jellico (1763-1837) married William Speer (junior)(1755-1844) in 1784 and they had nine children.
 
(1-5) Five of the children died unmarried

(6) Cecilia (c 1798-1863) married Hannibal Sandys (1794-1835) in 1825 and they had three children (Hannibal 1826-1915 unmarried - took the name of Speer to satisy terms of William Speer's will;  Mary Katherine Speer Sandys 1829-1889 unmarried;  Edward Frederick Sandys JP 1832-1910 ## see below)

(7) Wilfred Speer (c 1801-1856) married 1830 Sarah Speer (may have been a cousin - I've not investigated that yet).  They had two children - Wilfred Dakin Speer, b 1834 and murdered 1867 in USA (unmarried);  William Speer (1835-1868 unmarried)  Wilfred was rector at Thames Ditton for a short time c 1835 and was relieved of his duties due to unsatisfactory conduct.

(8) Wilhelm Speer (1805-1857) married Mary Taylor 1853.  They had four daughters (Mary, Ellen, Julia and Eliza Katherine)

(9) Eleanor Speer (1811-1880) married William Dancer in 1855
------------
** Edward Frederick Sandys (1832-1910) married Marianne Porter (1839-1911) and they had six children:
(1) Marianna Frances Cecilia Sandys (1872-1943) married Frederick Shirley Litchfield CMG DSO (1874-1922) in 1902.  He took the Speer name, the family becoming Litchfield-Speer, but later dropped the Speer, reverting to Litchfield ( London Gazette 1915, by Royal Decree, granted to FS Litchfield and his wife, permission to bear the surname Speer in addition to the Litchfield (and add this to his arms).  The Litchfield family lived at Weston Green I think.
(2) Edward Charles Hannibal Sandys (1874-1888 died at Lancing College, Ssx, - memorial lecturn in Thames Ditton church)
(3) Mary Ethel Sandys (1876-1957 unmarried)
(4) Amy Maud Sandys (1879-1950 unmarried)
(5) Edith Katherine Sandys (1881 - ? last seen 1901 unmarried and in census with family)
(6) Violet Speer Sandys (1883-1962 unmarried)

I hope this adds a bit to your knowledge of the family.  There are two or three headstones in the churchyard at Thames Ditton for various family members.

My connection to them goes back to Mary Jellico;  I am descended from one of her brothers.

Genial   :)   Sydney Oz   17 February 2012
BARNES  JELLICO  *WATERS  Ken
BECK Dev/Canada
BOWMAN  CHATER  COWENS  MUNDLE  OGILVIE   STEPHENSON  STEWART    Dur/Nbl
*BULL  MEAD  *SHADWELL  Wil
*CHASELING  DIXSON   GOLDING   *GOODMAN  JELLICO   RYALL  *SNOWDON  WHITE  *WILBOW  *WILSON  Lnd/Mdx
COVER   GOLDRING   *PANNELL   Ssx
DAY  RANDALL  Gls
FARLEY  GOLDRING  JELLICO  Sry
FURMAGE  Dor
*GOODMAN  WHITE  Bucks
JELLICO  India
*McLAREN  Per Sct
*MCWATERS  Lanark
OGILVIE Rox Sct
*PANNELL  PAYTON  Ham
*WIGHTMAN  Dow (NI)
* = also in Aus

Offline ThamesDitton

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Re: Sandys / Speer / Litchfield
« Reply #4 on: Friday 17 February 12 10:16 GMT (UK) »
Many thanks - this is helpful, particularly for Jellico. Speer genealogy seems quite hard to crack.

Do you have a cause of death for Hannibal Sandys d. 1835? With his father (also Hannibal) their law firm had got into difficulties. His father survived him and eventually paid off the bankruptcy.

Writing to a local historian here in 1964, Capt John Litchfield (grandson of Edward Frederick Sandys, son of FS Litchfield-Speer) noted of William Speer II (d.1844) that he ""had 19 children - 16 of them in 16 years 1785-1801 - many of whom died in infancy"

On marriage at St Margarets Westminster (where Rev. Wilfred Speer had been for a while Officiating Minister) Sarah is described in press announcements as " Miss Speer, of Park-street". Wilfred's father William Speer's London house was at Park Prospect (now Old Queen Street), not far from Park Street. I also am working on the likelihood that Sarah was a cousin of Wilfred's.

The case against Rev Wilfred Speer which led to his suspension for habitual drunkenness blew the village apart. He remained incumbent ("perpetual curate") at St Nicholas on paper until his death, but he never satisfied the required conditions of proven sobriety to resume office.


Offline genial

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Re: Sandys / Speer / Litchfield
« Reply #5 on: Saturday 18 February 12 08:30 GMT (UK) »
Thanks for your reply. 

Sorry, no I don't have a cause of death for Hannibal Sandys in 1835.

I didn't know about the 19 children - if it's true, then, Wow ! poor Mary !   I only have nine listed but there are gaps so could well have been others.  In my previous note I gave dates for four of the nine;  the other five I said died unmarried, but certainly survived childhood.  These were:

Eliza Katherine Speer (1789-1859)
Maria Speer (1791-1871)
Frances Speer (1792-1861)
Edward (1793-1859)
Constance (bet 1807-1812 - 1865)


Re the registers of St Margaret's Westminster;  there are limited entries on www.ancestry.co.uk from a few of these parish registers held at LMA, but as you know most of the St Margaret's registers would be at Westminster Archives - I have no access to them from Australia  :(    We visited Thames Ditton briefly in 2010 but didn't get to Westminster Archives. 

After much searching I did find an old map with Park Prospect marked on it - we must have walked past the site several times without realising it was the site of the former Speer home.

I have a copy of the will of William Speer (jr) and I was amused by the newspaper announcement of his death, viz., "by the death of Mr Speer one of the retired chief clerks of the Treasury, a pension of 1700 per annum is saved to the public" (London Times, Friday 12 April 1844) - couldn't say that sort of thing these days I shouldn't think.  Another announcement stated "on 11th inst at Weston, Thames Ditton, Surrey, William Speer, Esq, late of Her Majesty's Treasury, in the 80th year of his age" (The Standard, Saturday, 13 April 1844).

There are a few burials at Thames Ditton for various Speer family members , some of whom I have so far not been able to place;  some may be children of William Speer/Mary Jellico - some of the 19 perhaps

I know William Speer (who d 1844) was son of William Speer and Katherine Wilson who married c 1758 (this info from a summary of documents at Surrey Record Office - another place we didn't have time to visit - but I imagine you've been through the vast quantities of Speer and Litchfield papers held there)

William Speer senior died 1805 and his wife Katherine pre-deceased him, dying in 1780.   I don't know where the Speer family came from but it seems his wife's family had originally owned the Park Prospect place.

Re Rev Wilfred - I didn't know he had been officiating minister at St Margaret's;  wish I had access to the pr's;  perhaps one day they'll be put on-line - I wish !  I did find a report of his misdemeanours online.

In my note I mentioned one of Rev Wilfred's sons (Wilfred Dakin Speer) was murdered in the US - it was an interesting case, there's quite a bit online about it.  I have a copy of his will.  Even though he was killed in the US, he's buried at Woking.  Newspaper says "The remains of Captain Wilfred Speer who was shot on board the steamer "Octavia" near Fort Buford, Missouri River in June last, were yesterday interred in the family vault at the Necropolis, Woking, Surrey" (Pall Mall Gazette, Tuesday, 3 September 1867).  That's another place on my list of things to do if I get back to UK !

Hope all this is useful.

Genial  :)    Sydney Oz    18 February 2012


BARNES  JELLICO  *WATERS  Ken
BECK Dev/Canada
BOWMAN  CHATER  COWENS  MUNDLE  OGILVIE   STEPHENSON  STEWART    Dur/Nbl
*BULL  MEAD  *SHADWELL  Wil
*CHASELING  DIXSON   GOLDING   *GOODMAN  JELLICO   RYALL  *SNOWDON  WHITE  *WILBOW  *WILSON  Lnd/Mdx
COVER   GOLDRING   *PANNELL   Ssx
DAY  RANDALL  Gls
FARLEY  GOLDRING  JELLICO  Sry
FURMAGE  Dor
*GOODMAN  WHITE  Bucks
JELLICO  India
*McLAREN  Per Sct
*MCWATERS  Lanark
OGILVIE Rox Sct
*PANNELL  PAYTON  Ham
*WIGHTMAN  Dow (NI)
* = also in Aus

Offline ThamesDitton

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Re: Sandys / Speer / Litchfield
« Reply #6 on: Saturday 18 February 12 10:54 GMT (UK) »
You might like to read recent articles on "The Scandal" here: http://residents-association.com/tdt_pdfs/autumn2011.php  and here: http://residents-association.com/tdt_pdfs/winter2011.pdf

Since I wrote them I have - as is the way of these things - acquired a lot more info. I am thinking of maybe a book!

On Capt. Wilfred Dakin Speer's death, there is a good deal in our local Library in the Mercer Collection, including official reports from the US military authorities concerning the trial of the soldier who shot him (supplied to Mercer by John Litchfield) .  The body was repatriated

The Speers / later the Sandys also owned  13 The Grove Boltons West Brompton Mddx as well as almost a quarter of the parish of Thames Ditton, when that included the present Claygate, Hinchley Wood and Weston Green.

William Speer I was also a senior Revenue clerk in the Treasury (and also took a handsome pension!).  His son William II became one of the five topmost clerks at the Treasury; and Edward Frederick Sandys was also, I believe, a revenue clerk in the Treasury.

I suggest you pm me with your email address.  I have a great deal more (when time permits!) and you probably do, too.

Lastly, during the 1841 trial of Rev Wilfred Speer one of the witnesses, Capt. George Lambert RN (Lamberts are subject of a separate thread here) testified in fairness to drunken Wilfred that he had lately lost "within a short time, a mother, a sister, and a child"  The mother was your Mary Jellico; can you identify the sister and the child?  I was thinking Cecilia for the sister, but your date of death for her does not fit.  I know that her sons Hannibal and Edward Frederick Sandys were living with her sister (their aunt) Maria Speer until she died in 1871.

I haven't been able to find chapter and verse on the death of Cecilia daughter of William II.  I mentioned that her husband Hannibal was partner in a law firm with his father of the same name, and that in the 1830s it went bust.  Her husband died 1835 and I was wondering whether that early death was bankruptcy-related....

Where these Speers originally came from (before William I)  is a mystery; but that one of them was called Wilhelm is noteworthy - ??Germanic origins??

Wilfred Speer's grave (photographed by Mercer) also has plaques to: Wilfred's wife Sarah (1865) Wilfred's brother Wilhelm / Wilheim, d 1857, and his wife Mary (1885), and Wilfred's two sons Wilfred Dakin Speer (1867) and William Speer (1868)  Mercer was trying to find out why Rev Wilfred was not buried in St Nicholas' TD.  The above-mentioned articles should make the reason clear!  However, the public humiliation of Wilfred did not prevent his patriarch and patron William Speer II from being buried there in 1844.

Offline ThamesDitton

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Re: Sandys / Speer / Litchfield
« Reply #7 on: Saturday 18 February 12 10:59 GMT (UK) »
PS I also have William Speer II's will - but haven't found the time to transcribe it into legible print yet.....have you?....

See also related Speer thread: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=550947.msg4042048#msg4042048