Author Topic: Guthrie of Pitforthie  (Read 8825 times)

Offline Forfarian

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,809
  • I HAVE edited my profile - several times!
    • View Profile
    • Geograph
Guthrie of Pitforthie
« on: Monday 27 June 11 22:51 BST (UK) »
James Guthrie of Pitforthie married Janet Lyon, daughter of Lyon of Easter Ogil. They had 10 children: William, 1620; Andrew, 1622; Barbara, 1625; Nicolas, 1626; David, 1627; Robert, 1629; Margaret, 1630; Alexander, 1632; John, 1633; Jean, 1636. William, Robert, Alexander and John all became ministers, and William in particular distinguished himself. He made over the estate to a younger brother in order to concentrate on his ministry, but the brother died and in 1665 William returned to Pitforthie to sort out his affairs. While there he was taken ill and died in the manse of Brechin, where his sister Margaret's husband Laurence Skinner was minister.

James Guthrie of Pitforthie died in 1650. A David Guthrie of Pitforthie died in 1695. I will have a look at the confirmations of their estates, but neither actually left a will so the information about their family connections is likely to be a bit sparse.

I have reams and reams of information about the five ministers (four brothers and one brother-in-law) and their descendants, but I am more interested in the rest of the family.

What I would like to know is

1. Was the David Guthrie of Pitforthie who died in 1690 the one who was born in 1627, and if not who was his father?

2. Was David Guthrie, farmer at Cookston and Balbirnie Mill between about 1680 and 1710, related to the Guthries of Pitforthie?

Researching

AITKENHEAD, Lanarkshire; BINNY, Forfar; BLACK, New Monkland; BRYSON, Cumbernauld; BURGESS, North-East Scotland; CRUICKSHANK, Rothes; DALLAS, Botriphnie; DAVIDSON, Oyne; GUTHRIE, Angus; HOGG, Larbert; LESLIE, Rothes/Mortlach; MENDUM, England; MOLLISON, Lethnot; PATERSON, Larbert; RHIND, Forfar; SANG, Scotland; SCOTT, East Kilbride; STOR(R)I/E/Y, Shotts; THORNTON, Shotts; WADDELL, New Monkland; WILKIE, New Monkland; WILKIE, Tannadice; WYLLIE, Angus; YOUNG, Keith

RootsChat is the busiest, largest free family history forum site in the country. It is completely free to use. Register now.
Also register instantly with Facebook or Twitter (and other social networks). Start your genealogy search now.


Offline AnnGU3

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 2
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Guthrie of Pitforthie
« Reply #1 on: Friday 08 July 11 16:02 BST (UK) »
My name is Ann Guthrie. I am a co-administrator of the Guthrie DNA Project (Family Tree DNA Surname Projects). Our project has identified several distinct Guthrie lineages here in America. One of those, referred to as the 'Maryland/Pennsylvania Group', is still searching for some genetic proof to identify our specific Guthrie ancestors in Scotland and Ireland. It happens to be my family group, too.

We have recently obtained a genetic match between our group's participants and a descendant of John Guthrie (1725IRL-1797PA). According to the documentation currently available about John Guthrie, he is supposed to be a descendant of one of Rev. William Guthrie's brothers. The reference is somewhat vague and does not indicate the brother's name. It does state that one or more of the brothers had to flee Scotland and settled in or near Londonderry, Ireland.

You stated that you had detailed data about the family of James Guthrie & Janet Lyon and their known descendants. Would you be willing to share that information with me or provide some of your sources? It would help us to verify the data we do have and compare it to the genetically-matched branches of our American family tree.

Also, are you familiar with any known descendants of James Guthrie & Janet Lyon (must be male Guthries) who might be interested in participating in our DNA project? We are willing to fund the cost of the test.

Thank you.

RootsChat is the busiest, largest free family history forum site in the country. It is completely free to use. Register now.
Also register instantly with Facebook or Twitter (and other social networks). Start your genealogy search now.


Offline Forfarian

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,809
  • I HAVE edited my profile - several times!
    • View Profile
    • Geograph
Re: Guthrie of Pitforthie
« Reply #2 on: Friday 08 July 11 17:52 BST (UK) »
We have recently obtained a genetic match between our group's participants and a descendant of John Guthrie (1725IRL-1797PA). According to the documentation currently available about John Guthrie, he is supposed to be a descendant of one of Rev. William Guthrie's brothers.

Hmmm.

Rev William Guthrie (1620-1665) was one of six sons of James Guthrie and Janet Lyon. However all the available online biographies say that he was one of five sons, so I assume that one of them must have died in infancy. This is borne out by the Registers of Sasines, which mention William, David (1627-?), Robert (1629-?), Alexander (1632-1663) and John (1633-1669), but not Andrew (b 1622) . Therefore I conclude that Andrew, the second son, died young.

William had two sons, both of whom predeceased him. I have no information about any marriage or sons of Robert. Alexander had one son that I know of, Alexander, who survived his father and was served heir to him in 1667. John married Margaret Haldane but I have no information about any sons. I'll discuss David separately.

William, Robert, Alexander and John all died in Scotland as far as I know. I have not come across any suggestion that any of them fled to Ireland.

The biographies say that William, the eldest son, wished to concentrate on his ministry, so he made the estate of Pitforthie over to a younger brother. However this brother died, and William had to return to Pitforthie to deal with the inheritance. It was during this visit that he died at his sister's home in Brechin. So the inference is that David (b 1627) died about 1665. However I have yet to see any documentary evidence either for the transfer of the estate from William to a brother, or the death of the brother and subsequent transfer of the estate back to William.

An added complication is that a David Guthrie of Pitforthie died in 1695. His wife was Margaret Livingston, and they had at least seven sons: Patrick, William, Francis, Robert, James, John and Laurence. Only four are recorded in the parish register, the eldest of those being baptised in 1656. Were it not for the story of the brother to whom William made over the estate having died in about 1665, the obvious inference would have been that this David was the son of James, born 1627.

So either the tale of the brother who died is incorrect, or William made the estate over to one of his minister brothers. It can't have been John, because he outlived William. It's unlikely to have been Robert, who was delicate of health and died before he could be appointed to a charge; and if it was Alexander, who died in 1663, why did William delay going to sort out the inheritance until 1665? And in any case, if William's reason for divesting himself of his worldly possessions, why would he make them over to a brother who was also a minister?

I have notes on several sasines relating to this Guthrie family, but the notes do not shed much light on the matter. If I could decipher them, the original documents may contain some useful details.

So for the present the Guthries of Pitforthie are a bit of a puzzle.

Also, there was a very much later Guthrie of Pitforthie, James Guthrie (1835-1920) who was a son of the Reverend Thomas Guthrie and great-great-great-grandson of David Guthrie and Janet Stewart, whom I mentioned in my first post. I do not know yet whether he actually owned Pitforthie, or was the tenant, and if so, who did own it. I believe that some of the Rev Thomas' descendants are already participating in the DNA project, and I would be ecstatic if the DNA provided strong evidence for this family being related to the John Guthrie (1725-1797) whom you mention above, because it would link my family to the original Guthries of Pitforthie.

Quote
Also, are you familiar with any known descendants of James Guthrie & Janet Lyon (must be male Guthries) who might be interested in participating in our DNA project? We are willing to fund the cost of the test.

No. I do not know of any living descendants. I wish I did! Unfortunately I am not a Guthrie; it was my great-great-great-great-great-grandmother who was a Guthrie. She was a granddaughter of the above David Guthrie and Janet Stewart.

Researching

AITKENHEAD, Lanarkshire; BINNY, Forfar; BLACK, New Monkland; BRYSON, Cumbernauld; BURGESS, North-East Scotland; CRUICKSHANK, Rothes; DALLAS, Botriphnie; DAVIDSON, Oyne; GUTHRIE, Angus; HOGG, Larbert; LESLIE, Rothes/Mortlach; MENDUM, England; MOLLISON, Lethnot; PATERSON, Larbert; RHIND, Forfar; SANG, Scotland; SCOTT, East Kilbride; STOR(R)I/E/Y, Shotts; THORNTON, Shotts; WADDELL, New Monkland; WILKIE, New Monkland; WILKIE, Tannadice; WYLLIE, Angus; YOUNG, Keith

Offline AnnGU3

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 2
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Guthrie of Pitforthie
« Reply #3 on: Friday 08 July 11 19:28 BST (UK) »
Thanks for the quick reply. The information you've provided gives me a starting point to research the Pitforthie line of Guthries. I know of no one currently in the project who has provided an ancestral tree claiming Rev Thomas Guthrie as an ancestor. There are several unmatched individuals who have not provided us with their family history. It is also possible that someone has done DNA testing, but not officially joined our project. If that is the case, we wouldn't have details for comparison. However, now that we know Rev Thomas Guthrie's line is a possible match, we can start recruiting eligible candidates to participate. Maybe we'll get lucky and find one.

Offline Forfarian

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,809
  • I HAVE edited my profile - several times!
    • View Profile
    • Geograph
Re: Guthrie of Pitforthie
« Reply #4 on: Friday 08 July 11 19:48 BST (UK) »
I omitted to mention earlier that James Guthrie (son of David Guthrie of Pitforthie) and Margaret Skinner (a granddaughter of James Guthrie of Pitforthie through her mother Margaret Guthrie) had eight sons and two daughters between about 1685 and 1705.
Researching

AITKENHEAD, Lanarkshire; BINNY, Forfar; BLACK, New Monkland; BRYSON, Cumbernauld; BURGESS, North-East Scotland; CRUICKSHANK, Rothes; DALLAS, Botriphnie; DAVIDSON, Oyne; GUTHRIE, Angus; HOGG, Larbert; LESLIE, Rothes/Mortlach; MENDUM, England; MOLLISON, Lethnot; PATERSON, Larbert; RHIND, Forfar; SANG, Scotland; SCOTT, East Kilbride; STOR(R)I/E/Y, Shotts; THORNTON, Shotts; WADDELL, New Monkland; WILKIE, New Monkland; WILKIE, Tannadice; WYLLIE, Angus; YOUNG, Keith

Offline artfox

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 20
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Guthrie of Pitforthie
« Reply #5 on: Saturday 21 September 13 04:55 BST (UK) »
I seem to be related to Rev William Guthrie through one of his daughters, Agnes Guthrie, through the Millar line. I have accumulated the following information:

Burke's Peerage, Baronetage & Knightage, 107th edition has:

"Matthew Miller esq of Glenlee in the stuartry of Kircudbright m. Agnes daughter of the Rev William Guthrie Minister of Fenwick and was s by his eldest son, John Miller esq of Glenlee who m. Grizel...Cathcart"

Agnes Millar nee Guthrie died Aft 1697 at Glasgow, Lanarkshire, and Matthew Millar died abt Jan 1702 at Glenlee, Kirkcudbrightshire.

From the preface to his book "The Christian's Great Interest", Rev William Guthrie was born the eldest son of the laird of Pitforthly in Angus. He was also apparently a "cousin" of the Rev James Guthrie, the Martyr. Whilst preaching at Galston he was called to Fenwick.  He helped decide where the church should be erected, preached a within its unfinished walls and was ordained 7 Nov 1644.

In August 1644 or 1645 he married Agnes Campbell, a distant relative of the Earl of Loudon, "of the noble family of Loudon", daughter of David Campbell of Skeldon House in the parish of Dalrymple, Ayrshire.

After 8 to 10 days' illness he died in the house of his brother-in-law Mr Lewis Skinner, minister at Brechin, upon Wednesday the 10th of Oct 1665, afternoon, in the 45th years of his age, and was buried in the church of Brechin, under Pitforthy's desk.

However his father's name is as yet a mystery to me. Some seem to connect him to John Guthrie (est 1577-1649) m. c.1599 to Nichola(s) Wood (est 1577–1645). If so his mother seems quite old for a birth in 1620.

So I'd be interested where you located his fathers name as James, and his mothers name as Janet.

According to the preface to his book, William Guthrie was born in 1620 son of the laird in Pitforthy, near Brechin, Forfarshire. I note from The Dictionary of National Biography and also  http://www.covenanter.org.uk/WilliamGuthrie/ that his mother was of the house of Easter Ogle, parish of Tannadice, Forfarshire.

"William remained in Fenwick for a few months longer before ill health and the death of the brother, to whom he had foregone his inheritance, took him back to Pitforthy. There he died on the 10th October 1665 aged 45" [http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Guthrie,_William_%281620-1665%29_%28DNB00%29], at the home of his brother-in-law at Brechin, Angus. [Preface to The Christian’s Great Interest 1668]

"He was interred in Brechin cathedral. In 1854 a memorial to Guthrie was erected in Fenwick churchyard. In 2005 a plaque was erected in Brechin Cathedral to Guthrie by the Scottish Covenanter Memorials Association."[http://www.covenanter.org.uk/WilliamGuthrie/].

The monument says:

"In Memory of The Rev William Guthrie First Minister of this Parish and author of the Christians Great Interest Born 1620 Ordained 1644 Ejected by prelatic persecution 1664 Worn out by labours and sufferings he died 1665 and was interred in the church of Brechen His active and self-denied ministry through the divine blessing produced a deep and lasting impression. This stone is erected 1854 as a token of gratitude by the Christian Public"

"Two daughters of a family of six children survived him, one of whom became the wife of the Rev. Patrick Warner, of Irvine, and mother of Margaret Warner, who was afterwards married to the Rev. Robert Wodrow, of Eastwood, the faithful chronicler of the sufferings of the Church of Scotland."[http://www.covenanter.org.uk/WilliamGuthrie/]

I have his daughters as Agnes Guthrie (1656 – 1697) and Mary Guthrie (1665 – )

What were the names of his two sons that predeceased him?

Offline Forfarian

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,809
  • I HAVE edited my profile - several times!
    • View Profile
    • Geograph
Re: Guthrie of Pitforthie
« Reply #6 on: Saturday 21 September 13 09:37 BST (UK) »
Thank you for getting in touch.

his father's name is as yet a mystery to me. Some seem to connect him to John Guthrie (est 1577-1649) m. c.1599 to Nichola(s) Wood (est 1577–1645). If so his mother seems quite old for a birth in 1620.
So I'd be interested where you located his fathers name as James, and his mothers name as Janet.

James G of Pitforthie and Janet Lyon had ten of a family, of whom nine are recorded in the Brechin parish register, and the baptism records name the father as 'James Guthrie of Pitforthie'. The missing baptism is that of William, the eldest.

I have the listings from 'Fasti Ecclesiae Scoticanae' which briefly describe the lives of William and of two of his three minister brothers and of his brother-in-law Laurence Skinner. The listing of William states that he was "born 1620, eldest son of James Guthrie of Pitforthie,Forfarshire, by a daughter of Lyon of Easter-Ogle, in Tanadice". The listing of his brother Alexander states: "Minister at Stracathro  1655. Youngest son of James Guthrie of Pitforthie, and brother of William Guthrie, Minister of Fenwick and John Guthrie, Minister of Tarbolton." That of Laurence Skinner says that he "mar Margaret, dau of James Guthrie of Pitforthie".

Quote
What were the names of his two sons that predeceased him?
John and William. The daughters who predeceased him were Margaret and Elizabeth.

The career of John Guthrie, husband of Nicolas Wood, precludes the possibility that he was the Laird of Pitforthy. He was variously in Edinburgh and the Moray in the 1620s when the family of James Guthrie of Pitforthie were being born and baptised in Brechin. However one of Pitforthie's daughters was named Nicolas, so there is an intriguing possibility of a link.

Once you have posted two more messages to the forum, we will be able to use the Personal Message system to exchange e-mail addresses. I have too much information to post the whole lot here, and some of it is copyright and publishing it here would breach that. However see
http://www.newble.co.uk/guthriew/biography.html
http://www.monergism.com/directory/link_category/Puritans/William-Guthrie/
http://www.covenanter.org.uk/WilliamGuthrie/
http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=11969
http://timmybrister.com/2008/10/12/who-is-william-guthrie/
All of which were available to view in June 2011, when I last looked at William Guthrie in detail.

There is also an article by Matthew Vogan in the Free Church Witness, March 2003, which I must have seen online, but I have apparently failed to save the URL.

Nothing I have seen so far helps with my wishful thinking that my ancestor David Guthrie, husband of Janet Stewart, was a grandson of James G and Janet Lyon.
Researching

AITKENHEAD, Lanarkshire; BINNY, Forfar; BLACK, New Monkland; BRYSON, Cumbernauld; BURGESS, North-East Scotland; CRUICKSHANK, Rothes; DALLAS, Botriphnie; DAVIDSON, Oyne; GUTHRIE, Angus; HOGG, Larbert; LESLIE, Rothes/Mortlach; MENDUM, England; MOLLISON, Lethnot; PATERSON, Larbert; RHIND, Forfar; SANG, Scotland; SCOTT, East Kilbride; STOR(R)I/E/Y, Shotts; THORNTON, Shotts; WADDELL, New Monkland; WILKIE, New Monkland; WILKIE, Tannadice; WYLLIE, Angus; YOUNG, Keith

Offline artfox

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 20
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Guthrie of Pitforthie
« Reply #7 on: Saturday 21 September 13 10:50 BST (UK) »
Thank you

Ahh I should have thought to check Fasti Ecclesiae Scoticanae :) that's very helpful
I will keep an eye out for David Guthrie. I have 4 in my tree but none matching sadly.

Meantime this is my descent as I know it:

James Guthrie of Pitforthie m. Janet Lyons of Easter Ogil
William Guthrie Rev (1620 Brechin-1665 Fenwick) m. Aug 1645 Agnes Campbell (c.1625-)
Agnes Guthrie (1656 Kilmarnock-1697 Glasgow) m.1671 Kilmarnock to Matthew Millar of Glenlee (1655 Kilmarnock-1702 Glenlee)
William Miller (1676 Shotts-1753 Glasgow) m. bef.1709 Janet Hamilton ( -1735 of Glenlee)
James Miller (1710-) m.1735 Sorn to Elizabeth Smith (1714 Riccarton- )
Hugh Miller (1741Newton-on-Air-1814 Mauchlin) m.1771 Susanna Duncan (1753 Auchinleck-1830 Mauchlin)
James Millar (1772 Auchmillan-1860 Catrine) m.c.1797 Marrion Brown (1776 Mauchlin-1861 Irvine)
James Millar (1802 Catrine-1854 Kilmarnock) m.1826 Margaret Alexander Barclay (1807 Riccarton-1874 Kilmarnock)
James Barclay Millar (1827 Stewarton-1908 Parkes) m. Susan Reid (1834 Irvine-1870 Moree) [both to Australia 1850s]

Offline Forfarian

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,809
  • I HAVE edited my profile - several times!
    • View Profile
    • Geograph
Re: Guthrie of Pitforthie
« Reply #8 on: Saturday 21 September 13 11:39 BST (UK) »
Hmmmm.

I wonder if Glenlee House in Coatbridge is at all connected with your Glenlee? I have Alexander Ronald Miller (1841-1901) whose family were there living in 1901. However his forebears don't match yours:
Parents James Miller (1806-1887) and Catherine Ronald
Grandparents John Miller (1774-?) and Mary Allan
Great-grandfather James  Miller (1746-1819)
Great-great-grandparents James Miller (1707-1778) and Margaret Miller née Miller
Great-great-great-grandparents James Miller (1670-1743) and Mary Waddell (my connection)
Great-great-great-grandfather William Miller
Great-great-great-great-great-grandfather James Miller of Glenmill, Hollinglen and South Myvot (parish of New Monkland)

Researching

AITKENHEAD, Lanarkshire; BINNY, Forfar; BLACK, New Monkland; BRYSON, Cumbernauld; BURGESS, North-East Scotland; CRUICKSHANK, Rothes; DALLAS, Botriphnie; DAVIDSON, Oyne; GUTHRIE, Angus; HOGG, Larbert; LESLIE, Rothes/Mortlach; MENDUM, England; MOLLISON, Lethnot; PATERSON, Larbert; RHIND, Forfar; SANG, Scotland; SCOTT, East Kilbride; STOR(R)I/E/Y, Shotts; THORNTON, Shotts; WADDELL, New Monkland; WILKIE, New Monkland; WILKIE, Tannadice; WYLLIE, Angus; YOUNG, Keith