Guthrie of Pitforthie

[artfox]

No its coincidental, none of those amongst my Millars

[sdbpastor]

Hello! I am trying to help my wife discover more about her roots back to Scotland....through a David Guthrie of Kair, born in 1685 and Margaret Scott. Most records have this David as a son of David Guthrie, born about 1653, and Margaret Arbuthnot, but I am finding records, from memoirs of a Gideon Guthrie, that say his brother, David, left no living male issue, hence the first David I mentioned is theoretically without a parent.

[Forfarian]

When you say, 'most records', what records do you mean?

I would have thought that a brother's contemporary memoirs would be more accurate than a later reference, but it depends on what you are looking at.

[sdbpastor]

By "most records" I was referring to what shows up in numerous genealogy trees...but each of those could have been started by one inaccurate entry...and then just passed along.

[Forfarian]

By "most records" I was referring to what shows up in numerous genealogy trees...but each of those could have been started by one inaccurate entry...and then just passed along.

Oh, yes, indeed they could. Online trees can be useful as finding aids, but they cannot be relied on for accuracy.

I have to admit that I have not studied the original records of Gideon Guthrie and his connections, so I cannot really answer your questions. The only material I have on him is the item in Fasti Ecclesiae Scoticanae, which says that he was born in 1663; that his father was Harry Guthrie of Halkerton; that his mother was Margaret Sibbald, daughter of David Sibbald of Kair and his wife Jean, daughter of Sir David Auchmouty; that he married in 1703 Anne Melvin or Melville, daughter of Andrew Melvill or Melvin, minister of Morham; that he had four of a family; and that he died in 1732. The article cites Guthrie's own monograph and Black's History of Brechin. It also chronicles his ecclesiastical career.

Actually, as Gideon is usually described as an Episcopalian minister, I was a little surprised to see that he features in Fasti. I would have expected to look for him in Bertie's book on the episcopalian clergy rather than in Fasti.

There are two records of the marriage of a Gideon Guthrie to an Elspet Black or Blake, one in St Vigeans on 11 August and one in Farnell on 28 August 1683. Whether this is the same person, or another person of the same name, I do not know, but if Hew Scott did not include Elspet B in his biography in Fasti, he either failed to find this marriage, or knew that it was a different person. In any case, you would have thought that if Gideon himself gave family information in his memoir, he could hardly fail to mention a first wife, surely?

This Gideon is presumably the one whose son John was baptised in Monifieth in 1684.

Scotland's People has one baptism of a Gideon Guthrie, in Edinburgh in 1742, son of Hary Guthrie and Rachel Milln. As one of Gideon Guthrie's four children was Harry Guthrie, writer in Edinburgh, there is a high probability this this Gideon is a grandson of Gideon (1663-1732).

Gideon left no will, but there are several documents in the National Archives of Scotland referring to Gideon Guthrie. Inconveniently, some of these are dated 1661 and 1662, which suggests that there might have been yet another Gideon Guthrie. In particular, there is one document described as "Signature of the lands of Halkertoun etc granted to Gideon Guthrie, 1 Jul 1662". As this is a year before Gideon Guthrie (1663-1732) was born, either Fasti has his date of birth wrong, or (in my view more likely) there was another Gideon Guthrie.

One of the documents, in the Guthrie of Guthrie papers, includes a "Testificate of Gideon Guthrie's attendance at the College of Edinburgh, 1674". If this is Gideon (1663-1732) he must have attended the university at the tender age of 10 or 11. Could it be, however, that this is the Gideon who married Elspet B in 1683?

So many questions, so few answers!

So we have records of at least three, and probably four, different Gideon Guthries.

[Forfarian]

PS There is just one Sasine between 1620 and 1700 referring to a Gideon Guthrie not of Halkerton. This is to Gideon G, portioer of Milntoune of Conon, so of John G, portioner thereof. The date of this one is between 1679 and 1684, and Conon is in the parish of St Vigeans, so it is tempting to deduce that this is the Gideon who married Elspet in 1683. In which case there are definitely at least four different Gideon Guthries.

There are quite a lot of sasines referring to Gideon Guthrie of Halkerton, but these date from between 1620 and 1655, and refer to his wife as Agnes Jonken. So I think this has to be the grandfather of Gideon (1663-1732) and probably the one mentioned in 1661 and 1662. There are also sasines referring to John G of Milntown of Conon as son of Henry Guthrie of Halkerton. I am far too tired to try to unravel them all tonight!

[sdbpastor]

Thank you so very much for all of the work and info!

What I'm finding difficult now is that I have a David Guthrie, born about 1685, married a Margaret Scott in 1713, but for whom I have no parentage. I had been going off of numerous online trees that asserted his dad was David Guthrie, brother of the "main" Gideon in this discussion, married to Margaret Arbuthnot. But according to Gideon's memoirs, his brother David left no male descendants.

So my wife, Deborah Darlene Guthrie James, and I are back to David & Margaret Scott Guthrie. I've been using the Scotland's People site quite a bit today, but haven't cracked the "code" of ancestry as yet.

Thank you again for your time and effort in assisting me at this juncture!

Steven James

[Forfarian]

Sorry, I was almost falling asleep at the keyboard last night.

There is a David Guthrie, son of John Guthrie of Halkerton, portioner of Miltoune of Conon, referred to in two of the sasines, between 1668 and 1672, that also refer to Gideon Guthrie, son of the same John Guthrie.

Unfortunately I don't have the indexes to the Register of Sasines from 1700-1780. (For some reason the National Archives never published this book of indexes, so they can only be consulted in General Register House. I did ask some years ago what they would charge for putting the entire book on a CD and they said £100 and the idea got sort of sidelined!)

Apart from the various online trees that are not to be trusted, do you have any evidence for David's date of birth and for him being related to a Gideon Guthrie?

The IGI says that David Guthrie and Margaret Scott were married in Marykirk, Kincardineshire in 1713, and lists four children: David, 1715; James, 1717; Isobell, 1720; Janet, 1722. You should be able to view the originals of all these events at Scotland's People. They may or may not record the names of any witnesses, who can provide clues to family connections.

I've been trying to unravel the relationships of the Guthries of Halkerton, who include at least two of those Gideon Guthries.

I have made a spreadsheet to show which of all these people are mentioned in which of the sasines, and the approximate dates. If anyone would like a copy of this, please send me a PM with your e-mail address. I would welcome a few other pairs of eyes to examine this.

[sdbpastor]

David and Margaret Scott (sometimes listed as Isobel or Isabel) continued to have children, one being Robert, born in 1735, in Garvock, Kincardine. That is the line through which my wife connects. This is documented through Scotland's People's OPR information.

So my challenge now is to discover who this David's parents were, having ruled out what has been widely distributed on many sites as his father being David Guthrie, mother being Margaret Arbuthnot. (Ruled out by the memoirs of Gideon Guthrie, David Guthrie's brother, which state that he died without male descendant - his eldest daughter, Margaret, inheriting the estate, and marrying William Stuart.)