John Wynne als Salisbury will 1676

[hiraeth]

John Wynne als Salisbury of Meyarth Gwyddelwern was married to Alice vch Hugh ap John Salesbury of Clocaenog.   I understand that the term alias was sometimes used in the case of illegitimacy.  My question is would the sons have taken the name Wynne or Salisbury?  The will refers two sons as Robert Wynne & Richard Wynne but a third son Hugh and all the daughters do not have the Wynne mentioned in the will.   One of the witnesses was a Humffrey Salesbury but I do not know where he ties in.

Regarding Meyarth I see that there was a village by that name but also there is a Grade II listed building Meyarth Hall.  I think that John Wynne als Salisbury probably lived at the hall.   Sadly it is uphill from the google street view so no clear view of the building itself     Does anyone else get goosebumps from looking on street view at farmland and thinking my ancestors saw the same sight 300 plus years ago?    Would it be very cheeky of me to contact the current residents to ask for a picture?

Heather

[despair]

I can't help on the history side but if I'm right an image search in Google for Meiarth Hall,the current spelling,might reveal it under a property sale at rightmove.co.uk with full views.

[hiraeth]

Hi despair

Thank you 

H

[Rol]

John Wynne als Salisbury of Meyarth Gwyddelwern was married to Alice vch Hugh ap John Salesbury of Clocaenog.   I understand that the term alias was sometimes used in the case of illegitimacy.  My question is would the sons have taken the name Wynne or Salisbury? 
...

Hi Heather,


I think that sometimes is the operative word.  I would say that it also often came into use when trying to achieve maximum clarity about who was meant during the long years of name-instability,  during which patronymics gradually gave way to surnames and the same man often experimented with (or had foisted upon him) several different styles in the course of his own lifetime.

In the case of the Meiarth family,  it was in this John Wynne's generation that they finally "went native" and dropped the name Salusbury/Salesbury;  but I have never seen it suggested that there was any illegitimacy involved.  Robert was the heir,  and from his time on they were known as the Wynnes of Meiarth (or Meyarth).  Not aware of Robert's brothers having had children,  so cannot say whether their issue (if any) also stuck with "Wynne".

My guess would be that the Humphrey you mention was the testator's nephew,  son of his brother Thomas.  Thomas and John seem to have had their father Robert's land partitioned between them.  Per NLW Wynnstay MS. 144 p.727,  Thomas was the elder and he retained the surname Salusbury.  His son Humphrey's issue seem to have died out in the male line soon afterwards.  Thomas's will is here (proved St Asaph 5 Mar. 1683/4).


Rol

[hiraeth]

So if John Wynne als Salisbury was born a Salisbury then I wonder how he was related to his wife Alice

Heather

[Rol]

Mmm.  An enduring puzzle.  I think John's side of the family is hooked into the Salusbury pedigrees reasonably satisfactorily via documentary sources and NLW Wynnstay MS. 144 p.727.  Ales's side -- i.e. the descent of her father Hugh Salesbury of Clocaenog (d.1661) -- is the source of the mystery.

For everyone's convenience:

[Link]
Hi Listers
I'm trying to learn more about Hugh Salesbury of Clocaenog.
I've found his 1661 will on the NLW site and he mentions a daughter Alice who is married to a John Wynne Salisbury. …

plus

[Link]
… I wish that I could tell you where Hugh of Clocaenog fits in, but I failed to unearth any satisfactory evidence about that question when I last looked at it (years ago now). The best compendium of the junior lines of the clan is to be found in NLW Wynnstay MSS 143-4; but it does not seem to provide a clear match for this particular man. I once looked at several local deed schedules without success, but my guess back then was that either deeds or litigation records could offer the best hope of making a sound link up -- even if Hugh himself was only a tenant of his richer (presumed) cousins.

The Charles mentioned as landlord in the 1661 will was doubtless the son of the Colonel William who held Denbigh Castle for King Charles. Charles Salesbury's daughter Jane became the sole heiress who took the Bachymbyd estate (including its land in Clocaenog) into the hands of the Bagot family -- despite her "wicked uncle" Owen Salesbury of Rűg trying to prevent that outcome through a chancery suit (in which attempt he barely escaped criminal prosecution for forging a deed). ...

-- and elsewhere in that post I also referred to work apparently undertaken on the same subject by Berwyn Kerfoot and Lavinia Phillips.

Over in the RootsChat Anne Salesbury Powell thread,  Paul Salisbury mentioned one of the few clues about Hugh's paternity to be found in the 1661 will:

I believe that on Hugh's will it mentions a brother, William ap John.
So it's possibly that John Salesbury was Hugh's father.

Of course,  the risk with references to brothers or sisters in wills of that vintage is that the writer could quite easily have meant brother or sister in law;  so one quite understands Paul's cautious use of the word "possibly".

In the context of this from the end of my above-cited RootsWeb post

Do post the news if you know or discover whether either of the two people mentioned above has pushed further back -- or you crack the problem yourself!

I was interested to see that you began your opening post in this current thread with the words "John Wynne als Salisbury of Meyarth Gwyddelwern was married to Alice vch Hugh ap John Salesbury of Clocaenog."

I would be very interested to know whether -- since that RootsWeb discussion of November 2009 -- you have uncovered any new information on the matter (perhaps thanks to Berwyn K or Lavinia P?) sufficient to make you more confident about Hugh Salesbury's father being a John Salesbury.  Do tell!

It would be a great thing to succeed in tying Hugh Salesbury of Clocaenog into his proper place in the overall clan.


Rol

[hiraeth]

Hi Rol

Sorry I missed your last post and have only just discovered it     We are renovating this weekend hence I'm too distracted to get out all my references.   Plus my OH doesn't like my Salesburies   I'll post again shortly.

Heather

[Rol]

... We are renovating this weekend ...

Ah, yes -- something I should certainly be doing too . . . and certainly won't be.

I'm too distracted to get out all my references.   Plus my OH doesn't like my Salesburies …

. . .  the bad news.

Plus the good news:

… I'll post again shortly.

So I now have the necessary excuse to defer (again) putting all my Salesbury references back into the toy cupboard.


Rol

[hiraeth]

So I now have the necessary excuse to defer (again) putting all my Salesbury references back into the toy cupboard.
Rol

Hi Rol

After looking in my toy cupboard again, I think you can safely put the Salesburys back in your toy cupboard.    As you say "brother" William ap John could have been a half brother or brother in law.     Sorry if I raised false hopes regarding Hugh (d1661).     

Despite BK's help on the Powell side at Gyffilliog where PRs go back to 1617, the brick walls are as strong as ever

H