Author Topic: Census returns (+ Removal Order?)- VENESS Family.  (Read 3313 times)

Offline Smash Adams

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Census returns (+ Removal Order?)- VENESS Family.
« on: Wednesday 13 July 11 09:28 BST (UK) »
Hello :)

To begin with- I have the following information on the Veness family of Hawkhurst;

Isaac Veness (birth?) married Barbara Baker (birth?), 22 March 1819 in Dallington Sussex.

I think they had the following children:
Isaac Veness born 1823, Hawkhurst.
John Veness born 1825,       "
Mary Veness born 1834,       "

In 1841, the family is living in Cranbrook, Kent.
Would someone be able to give me a transcript of the household? And possible births for Isaac and Barbara?

I also found a removal order from the Centre for Kentish Studies
* Isaac Veness and his wife Barbara from Dallington, Sussex. Does anyone know what this may have mean? I presume they fell on hard times?...

Many thanks!

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Offline california dreamin

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Re: Census returns (+ Removal Order?)- VENESS Family.
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 13 July 11 10:03 BST (UK) »
Hi Smash

I have relatives that lived in Cranbrook and I think the Parish elders in this parish were quite fierce.  Your family's removal order may have been without foundation.  If you did not have a settlement certificate they seemed quite keen to get you up and out of their parish asap just "in case" you fell on hard times.  I would image that some parishes had a far more relaxed attitude.

The poor law act provided for relief to be granted only to paupers in their parish of settlement.  This was intended to restrict the influx of poor labourers especially into parishes that were already overburdened with too many paupers.  One difficulty in legal settlement in a new parish was the fear that if you moved out of your original parish of legal settlement that theywould deny responsibility for you if you fell onto hard times.  As I said there was a distrust from the parish wardens of newcomers "in case" they should need parish relief in the future. 

I think you should have a good chance of finding for their Settlement Certificate from their original parish - try the Centre for Kentish Studies again or TNA.

Kind regards

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Online KGarrad

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Re: Census returns (+ Removal Order?)- VENESS Family.
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday 13 July 11 10:09 BST (UK) »
1841 census, Reference HO107, Piece 473, Book/Folio 10/4, Page 1
Pipsden, Hawkhurst

Veness, Isaac  M  40  Ag Lab
Veness, Barbara  F  40
Veness, John  M  16
Veness, Mercy  F  7                  all born in county

Please remember that ages were (usually!) rounded down to a multiple of 5 years.
Hence age 40 could be anything from 40 to 44
Garrad (Suffolk, Essex, Somerset), Crocker (Somerset), Vanstone (Devon, Jersey), Sims (Wiltshire), Bridger (Kent)

Offline Smash Adams

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Re: Census returns (+ Removal Order?)- VENESS Family.
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday 13 July 11 10:16 BST (UK) »
Thanks for all that interesting info california dreamin! Does that mean they would have been booted back to Sussex?

Thanks to you too, KGarrad! My ancestor is missing though- Isaac Veness (Jnr) born 1823, Hawkhurst, any chance of finding him?  :-*

Online KGarrad

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Re: Census returns (+ Removal Order?)- VENESS Family.
« Reply #4 on: Wednesday 13 July 11 10:21 BST (UK) »
The only likely Isaac is 13 years old, and living with another Veness family - Joseph & Mary in Battle, Sussex.
Garrad (Suffolk, Essex, Somerset), Crocker (Somerset), Vanstone (Devon, Jersey), Sims (Wiltshire), Bridger (Kent)

Offline california dreamin

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Re: Census returns (+ Removal Order?)- VENESS Family.
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday 13 July 11 10:31 BST (UK) »
Hi

Yes, they would have been sent back to their parish of original settlement - which could be the one in Sussex. It will say on the removal order where they have been sent back to.   My family lived very close to the Sussex-Kent boarder and seemed to drift back and forth between the two counties. 

One thing I would point out here was that this area had a high rate of immigrants that were "paid" to leave.  My extended family all were given assisted passage to Austrialia! One left one year, a brother the next year, another brother the year after etc. until something like eight siblings had left England.  There seems to be alot of records available in Sussex & Kent so you should be able to find some sort of a paper trail for your family.

Offline Smash Adams

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Re: Census returns (+ Removal Order?)- VENESS Family.
« Reply #6 on: Wednesday 13 July 11 11:11 BST (UK) »
Thanks California- I'll be sure to look up.

Okay, well... I don't think it's him in Sussex. Were Joseph and Mary listed as parents?
Could we try the 1851 census? He's in Lambeth, with wife Sarah, and sons Martin and Reuben. I'm most interested to know what he did for a living!

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Re: Census returns (+ Removal Order?)- VENESS Family.
« Reply #7 on: Wednesday 13 July 11 11:58 BST (UK) »
Were Joseph and Mary listed as parents?

1841 census doesn't show relationship to head of household!
They are probably Isaac's parents, but they could also be Uncle & Aunt? Or not related at all!!  ;D


1851 census: Reference HO107, 1575, 383, 37
Thomas Place, Stockwell Green, Lambeth

Veniss, Isaac  Head  M  28  Dyer  b Hawkhurst, Kent
Veniss, Sarah  Wife  F  30  b Kingston, Surrey
Veniss, Martin  Son  M  2  b Clapham, Surrey
Veniss, Rheubin  Son  M  10 months  b Clapham, Surrey
Garrad (Suffolk, Essex, Somerset), Crocker (Somerset), Vanstone (Devon, Jersey), Sims (Wiltshire), Bridger (Kent)

Offline Smash Adams

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Re: Census returns (+ Removal Order?)- VENESS Family.
« Reply #8 on: Wednesday 13 July 11 13:40 BST (UK) »
Argh, how frustrating that they don't show relationships in the 1841 census! I'll have to do a bit more digging :)

Now 1861 is quite strange, from what I see there were some serious typo's going on!
(Ie: Israell Venegs) They're all in Hertfordshire I think.

Then I believe Isaac died in 1869 in Hertford.
In 1871, his family are still in Hertford.

Could I have transcripts for both those please?  :D

PS: Re: The 1841 census- I found that Isaac Veness born 1828- it isn't my ancestor sadly :( He was born in Sussex, Father- Joseph, Mother- Mary and married a Ann Faith Booker, whereas my Isaac married a Sarah Martin... Oh well, at least I now know it's not him!