Author Topic: british army involvement in russian civil war 1919  (Read 16784 times)

Offline forester

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Re: british army involvement in russian civil war 1919
« Reply #9 on: Saturday 16 July 11 11:02 BST (UK) »
Do you know which unit he served with in Russia?

There are war diaries at Kew for quite few.

Phil
Sussex: Satcher (Hamsey) and Gatton (East Grinstead)
Leicestershire: Pratt
South Wales: Evans (Neath)
Poland: Gonet, Deren

Forest Row: War Memorial and Camp WW1
Lewisham War Memorials & WW1 Graves

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Offline dfss

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Re: british army involvement in russian civil war 1919
« Reply #10 on: Saturday 16 July 11 11:22 BST (UK) »
Hello Forester....

Sadly not...... I havn't got that far in my research yet.

I think however that it may well have been with the Royal Fusiliers. Both he and his brother were I think Commissioned in 1916 or 1917 into that Regiment, his brother (who was killed in 1918) certainly so. I know quite a bit about the brother.
I have been trying to log on to Ancestry his morning to see if his records might be there. I am told that as an Officer there is a good chance of this. Unfortunately at present I can't log on -"the Computer says no" for some reason !

Offline forester

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Re: british army involvement in russian civil war 1919
« Reply #11 on: Saturday 16 July 11 11:39 BST (UK) »
Officers records aren't on Ancestry. Those that survive are at Kew, unless he served on into the 1920's, in which case they will still be held by the MoD.

It is also a myth that there is more chance of an officer's record surviving. Many were destroyed.

http://www.rootschat.com/links/0eav/

If you post their names, we can have a look.

Phil
Sussex: Satcher (Hamsey) and Gatton (East Grinstead)
Leicestershire: Pratt
South Wales: Evans (Neath)
Poland: Gonet, Deren

Forest Row: War Memorial and Camp WW1
Lewisham War Memorials & WW1 Graves

Census information is Crown Copyright  http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline dfss

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Re: british army involvement in russian civil war 1919
« Reply #12 on: Saturday 16 July 11 11:46 BST (UK) »
Hi Forester....

Thanks for this info.....

I would indeed be very grateful if you could point me in the right direction. All I have at present is family heresay which I only paid half-attention to when I was young. It sounds as if you are pretty experienced at this.

He was 2nd Lieut or Lieut Francis Alfred Martin


Offline dfss

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Re: british army involvement in russian civil war 1919
« Reply #13 on: Saturday 16 July 11 12:17 BST (UK) »
Hello again Forester....

Forgot to say that Francis' brother was;

2nd Lieut. Stanley Martin M.M. of the London Rgt. (Royal Fusiliers). He was killed at Epehy in 1918. I manged to find quite a lot of information on him thamks to the Reading Memorial Trust.

I think Francis was also in the London Regiment.

Offline forester

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Re: british army involvement in russian civil war 1919
« Reply #14 on: Saturday 16 July 11 13:13 BST (UK) »
So far it's not looking good.

I can't find a definitive service record for either of them in WO338.

I can see a medal index card for Francis on the NA, but as my Ancestry subscription has lapsed, I can't look at it for clues. I haven't been able to find his commission in the London Gazette and Martin is too common a surname to search blindly. The date may be on his MIC. He was definitely London Regiment though and commissioned from the ranks. He went overseas as Lance Corporal 4090.

http://www.rootschat.com/links/0eay/

You should be able to find his MIC on Ancestry with the info from the link above.

Phil
Sussex: Satcher (Hamsey) and Gatton (East Grinstead)
Leicestershire: Pratt
South Wales: Evans (Neath)
Poland: Gonet, Deren

Forest Row: War Memorial and Camp WW1
Lewisham War Memorials & WW1 Graves

Census information is Crown Copyright  http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline dfss

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Re: british army involvement in russian civil war 1919
« Reply #15 on: Saturday 16 July 11 13:55 BST (UK) »
Thanks Phil..

Due to your help I too found the medal card and have just downloaded it.

Difficult to read but, unless I am completely misinterpreting it, Francis joined up in 1915, was Commissioned as 2nd. Lieut. on 26th August 1917 (?) and his rank was then ammended to Lieutenant of 2/20 London Rgt. in March or May 1919. I cn't help speculating that perhaps this promotion was linked with the impending departure for Russia. I'll keep looking.....thanks for the link

Offline forester

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Re: british army involvement in russian civil war 1919
« Reply #16 on: Saturday 16 July 11 23:41 BST (UK) »
He went overseas with the 15th Battalion, London Regiment (Civil Service Rifles). He was probably sent out as a reinforcement for the 1/15th (date of entry to France 4/12/15).

Commissioned into the 20th Battalion (Blackheath and Woolwich) 28/8/17 and went on to serve with the 2/20th.

The rank on his Star was amended to Corporal.

As an officer he would have had to apply for his medals and it looks like they were issued 6/7/25.

The back of the card should have a bit more info such as when he applied for his medals and his address at the time.

Unfortunately there is nothing on there to link him with the Russian campaign. The 2/20th went on to serve with the Army of Occupation in Germany. The final war diary for them ends in March 1919 (WO 95/3083).

Phil
Sussex: Satcher (Hamsey) and Gatton (East Grinstead)
Leicestershire: Pratt
South Wales: Evans (Neath)
Poland: Gonet, Deren

Forest Row: War Memorial and Camp WW1
Lewisham War Memorials & WW1 Graves

Census information is Crown Copyright  http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline dfss

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Re: british army involvement in russian civil war 1919
« Reply #17 on: Sunday 17 July 11 09:27 BST (UK) »
Thanks Phil....extremely helpful.

I still can't get onto Ancestry.....says my e-mail address is already in use and I can't get the password reset e-mail for some reason. I'll be in touch if I find out more. The Russian business was definitely talked about when I was a child....I wonder if Francis could have been "seconded" or temporarily attached to another unit....especially as he was on training duties at the end of the war.

"Civil Service Rifles" is a phrase which I heard as a child but had completely forgotten !

Just out of interest here is a little bit of what I rember of Francis concerning "his war" :

 When I was young I remember my Uncle showing me a pencil written account of this service which he had probably intended to write up in more detail at a later date which made a deep impression on me. Unfortunately this account disappeared after my Uncle's death. Essentially, my memory of the account's contents are of a description of various places where Francis had been stationed "fleshed out" with incidental details. Such details include :  Digging trenches in a sector where the French had been previously and digging up skeletons.; Buying food from the locals.; Being bayoneted in the hand during a raid on the German trenches.; Shooting his "first Bosch for certain".; Meeting up with "Stan" (his brother) fairly late in the war. There was also a detailed account of an attack on German positions (I think at High Wood on the Somme but I am not certain of this) during which he was seriously wounded. In this part of the account Francis writes that after being issued with extra ammunition the troops were moved up communication trenches to a "jump off point" on the evening before the planned offensive. Francis noted that those who would be killed the following day were "strangely silent". He described going forward over no-man's land the following morning. Francis states that he was in the "first wave" and that after progressing some distance under fire he turned and found that he was virtually alone, just about all his fellow soldiers in the first wave having been killed or wounded. Francis decided to take cover in a shell crater and await the Second Wave which he saw starting from their "jump off positions". He states that the Germans were so unconcerned by the British Attack as to be actually standing on their trench parapet in order to take better aim. At some point, presumably after joining the second wave, Francis was shot in the neck. Incredibly he survived this wound and managed to take cover in a shell crater until nightfall when he crawled back to the British front line and was then taken to a dressing station. At some point during his recovery from this wound Francis met my Grandmother who was serving in France as a nurse. When young I remember seeing a photograph of Ella sitting in her nurse's uniform on a horse drawn ambulance. This photograph has also saddly disappeared. Along with Francis' account of his war service I also remember seeing his Field Orders book and his Platoon book. This latter had a list of men in Francis' platoon. After the list of names were the letters K or W written in blue crayon. The K indicated "killed" and the W "wounded"; to my memory, out of about 20 names only about 2 or 3 were not so marked. Most of the Orders in the Field Service Book were written in code and/or shorthand. As an accountant before the war Francis had learned this skill. There were qite a few sketched trench maps, and, most interestingly little cartoons and sketches in pencil and watercolour of broken trees, barbed wire etc. etc. Unfortunately both these books can no longer traced. There exist two family stories about Francis' war service which I have not yet been able to verify. Firstly that after recovering from his wound his was put on training duties, and, whilst teaching young recruits the use of the Mills Bomb grenade he was wounded in the side of the face and presumably the hand by an accidental explosion. Secondly that he was ordered to Archangel in 1919-20, probably as an advisor/trainer to aid the White Russian forces in their struggle against the Bolcheviks.