Author Topic: Merchant Navy CR10 & CR2 Questions  (Read 6489 times)

Offline MerRhosyn

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Merchant Navy CR10 & CR2 Questions
« on: Tuesday 13 September 11 02:00 BST (UK) »
Can anyone help with the interpretation of a CR10 card?

On the front gives: No of identity certificate, name, rating, date and place of birth, nationality, nationality of father.

On the back gives: Three ship identification numbers with corresponding dates and the text "No photos.  See RS1."  Possibly "RSI."

What does this code mean?

If I look up the crew lists for these ships (some of which exist, I know), what sort of information would they tell me - name and the specific date range the sailor was aboard the ship?

Is there any way to correlate this CR10 card to a later CR2 card?  The CR2 card has a "Dis A No," name, and ship identification numbers with corresponding dates.

Specifically - is there any database that links the CR10 "no of identity certificate" with the CR2 discharge number?

I am trying to determine if the CR10 and CR2 cards belong to my great grandfather James McDuff Robertson.  There are some convincing arguments to be made in the case of each, although some inconsistencies that I'd like to shed more light on.  A way to correlate "Jas Robertson" to "J McDuff" would be extremely useful.

Thanks in advance for your assistance.
Perthshire: Robertson, Heggie, Cattanach, Buchan, Ferguson, Moor, McCulloch, McEwen, Baxter, Jack, Taylor, Guthrie, Martin
Lanarkshire: Purdon, Risk, Waters, Gentles, Pollock, Fergus, Lapslie, Young
Kent: Burt, Pratt, Salmon/Sanham, Packman, Back, Jewiss, Best, Odd, Baker, Stevenson, Parkins, Brown, Page, Stone, Fielder
Wiltshire: Kellow, Ewens, Stevens, Lampard, Mead, Toomer
Essex: Clark, Fowler, Speller
Hampshire: Simmonds, Whettam, Peaty, Butler, Swan, Rogers, Keech

Offline seaweed

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Re: Merchant Navy CR10 & CR2 Questions
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday 13 September 11 09:45 BST (UK) »
Is there any chance you could attach the individual cards showing front and back.
Regarding Crew Agreements rather than crew lists. A crew list was usually part of the ships logbook and was by and large a record of the crews conduct.
What you need to see is the Crew Agreement. I have attached a sample of what you may expect to find. the name of previous ship can be an aid as this can help confirm a link between CR10 and CR2 and Dis A number.
Logbooks and Crew Agreements are searchable via the ships official number. To put a name to an O/N see.
http://www.mercantilemarine.org/showthread.php?6377-Ship-Numbers&p=35569#post35569
Dim ateb yn well nag ateb anghywir. Nid oes dim yn ddall fel rhai nad ydynt yn dymuno gweld

RIP Roger 10 August 2022

Offline MerRhosyn

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Re: Merchant Navy CR10 & CR2 Questions
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday 13 September 11 12:06 BST (UK) »
Seaweed -

Well, I had attached them for an instant.  But I was concerned posting them perhaps violated the forum copyright rules.  They have crown copyright notices attached, but were obtained via a third-party service.  If I'm mistaken, I can attach them in a jiffy.

Thank you for the example of the crew agreement!  There is a six year gap btw the end date on one card and the start date on the other - so this should, indeed, help rule in or out a connection between the two.  That link is a goldmine too.

Many thanks!

CR10
123332 - 5.19
131312 - 9.19
135456 - 10.20

CR2
136791 - 26.10.26
9 other handwritten entries
Two stamps including from Alhama, Glasgow, 145260
146330 - 19.4.35

Perthshire: Robertson, Heggie, Cattanach, Buchan, Ferguson, Moor, McCulloch, McEwen, Baxter, Jack, Taylor, Guthrie, Martin
Lanarkshire: Purdon, Risk, Waters, Gentles, Pollock, Fergus, Lapslie, Young
Kent: Burt, Pratt, Salmon/Sanham, Packman, Back, Jewiss, Best, Odd, Baker, Stevenson, Parkins, Brown, Page, Stone, Fielder
Wiltshire: Kellow, Ewens, Stevens, Lampard, Mead, Toomer
Essex: Clark, Fowler, Speller
Hampshire: Simmonds, Whettam, Peaty, Butler, Swan, Rogers, Keech

Offline seaweed

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Re: Merchant Navy CR10 & CR2 Questions
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday 13 September 11 16:10 BST (UK) »
Don't worry,
I take it that the date 26.10.06 is a typo and should read 26/10/1926

Is that correct?

If it is it may explain the RS1 RSI  enigma.
Form CRS1 is, seamen discharged and immediately re-engaged on Articles for further service in the same ship.
So it could mean he served on NESTOR o/n 135456 for six years.

If it were me, the easiest way to prove or otherwise the CR10 and CR2 belonged to the same man is to look at the Crew Agreements covering the dates for NESTOR 135456 and  METAGAMA O/N 136791.
You could then compare signature's, Dis A numbers DOB etc.

Problem is these documents are in Newfoundland! However Memorial University of Newfoundland have a first class research service and they are not overly expensive.

http://www.mun.ca/mha/holdings/searchcombinedcrews.php
Dim ateb yn well nag ateb anghywir. Nid oes dim yn ddall fel rhai nad ydynt yn dymuno gweld

RIP Roger 10 August 2022


Offline MerRhosyn

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Re: Merchant Navy CR10 & CR2 Questions
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday 13 September 11 16:32 BST (UK) »
Yes, 1926, writing too early in the morning.

This is fabulous advice - I honestly didn't realize the crew agreements would be so thorough and contain age, address, etc.  I thought I'd be lucky to get a name and date of service.

I have all sorts of complementary evidence for solving my problem (birth cert, childrens' birth certs w/ signatures, addresses for the 1920-1930 time period, etc.).  One of the issues is that the CR10 year of birth is 11 years "off" - to the date.  If the agreements show age that matches more closely with the real year of 1899, that will go a long way in helping me explain the inconsistency.  I had Southampton search and looked myself at the National Archives, but it was the only the online search interface that enabled me to catch these candidates.  I'm more confident the CR10 is my man...but if both belong to him, all the better!

Thank you so much - I will contact Newfoundland and see if they can help!
Perthshire: Robertson, Heggie, Cattanach, Buchan, Ferguson, Moor, McCulloch, McEwen, Baxter, Jack, Taylor, Guthrie, Martin
Lanarkshire: Purdon, Risk, Waters, Gentles, Pollock, Fergus, Lapslie, Young
Kent: Burt, Pratt, Salmon/Sanham, Packman, Back, Jewiss, Best, Odd, Baker, Stevenson, Parkins, Brown, Page, Stone, Fielder
Wiltshire: Kellow, Ewens, Stevens, Lampard, Mead, Toomer
Essex: Clark, Fowler, Speller
Hampshire: Simmonds, Whettam, Peaty, Butler, Swan, Rogers, Keech

Offline MerRhosyn

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Re: Merchant Navy CR10 & CR2 Questions
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday 13 September 11 16:37 BST (UK) »
Sorry if this was implied - do those Form CRS1s still exist?
Perthshire: Robertson, Heggie, Cattanach, Buchan, Ferguson, Moor, McCulloch, McEwen, Baxter, Jack, Taylor, Guthrie, Martin
Lanarkshire: Purdon, Risk, Waters, Gentles, Pollock, Fergus, Lapslie, Young
Kent: Burt, Pratt, Salmon/Sanham, Packman, Back, Jewiss, Best, Odd, Baker, Stevenson, Parkins, Brown, Page, Stone, Fielder
Wiltshire: Kellow, Ewens, Stevens, Lampard, Mead, Toomer
Essex: Clark, Fowler, Speller
Hampshire: Simmonds, Whettam, Peaty, Butler, Swan, Rogers, Keech

Offline ScouseBoy

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Re: Merchant Navy CR10 & CR2 Questions
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday 13 September 11 16:48 BST (UK) »
What would happen in the case of  an AB  seaman  with appendicitis transferred to a hospital in Capetown?

Would his company  in 1934  help him  in any way?
Nursall   ~    Buckinghamshire
Avies ~   Norwich

Offline seaweed

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Re: Merchant Navy CR10 & CR2 Questions
« Reply #7 on: Thursday 15 September 11 01:19 BST (UK) »
Sorry if this was implied - do those Form CRS1s still exist?

I doubt very much if a CRS1 for your man is available. Probably destroyed.
Please keep us up to speed on your research at Newfoundland.
I would be interested in the results.
Dim ateb yn well nag ateb anghywir. Nid oes dim yn ddall fel rhai nad ydynt yn dymuno gweld

RIP Roger 10 August 2022

Offline MerRhosyn

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Re: Merchant Navy CR10 & CR2 Questions
« Reply #8 on: Wednesday 28 September 11 14:20 BST (UK) »
@Seaweed or any one else with experience...

Do the dates "135456 - 10.20" correspond to voyage start or termination dates?

I've been going back and forth with Newfoundland.  They possess the Nestor agreements for 1920, but not for 1921.  I can't get much except a form response.  If the voyage terminated in 1920, then I'm happy to pay the $40 for that particular search.  But if it's almost guaranteed it terminated in 1921, I'll pick another ship and date range.
Perthshire: Robertson, Heggie, Cattanach, Buchan, Ferguson, Moor, McCulloch, McEwen, Baxter, Jack, Taylor, Guthrie, Martin
Lanarkshire: Purdon, Risk, Waters, Gentles, Pollock, Fergus, Lapslie, Young
Kent: Burt, Pratt, Salmon/Sanham, Packman, Back, Jewiss, Best, Odd, Baker, Stevenson, Parkins, Brown, Page, Stone, Fielder
Wiltshire: Kellow, Ewens, Stevens, Lampard, Mead, Toomer
Essex: Clark, Fowler, Speller
Hampshire: Simmonds, Whettam, Peaty, Butler, Swan, Rogers, Keech