Author Topic: Merchant seamens records 1918-1941  (Read 13868 times)

Offline ernestjames

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Re: Merchant seamens records 1918-1941
« Reply #9 on: Friday 23 September 11 09:28 BST (UK) »
Hi Seaweed
I checked on the National Archives site on how many microfiche copies of the CR10, CR1 and CR2 cards they hold which have been extracted from BT 348, BT 349 and BT 350. Total was 1,033,214 compared with FindMyPast figure of 998,838. Difference is around 34,000 which is around 3% of the total. What happened there?

I thinks it great that they records are on line but I think that an opportunity has been missed by placing the Discharge A number inside the paywall. It cannot be used as a search tool. The present search tools  of surname, forename, dob and birthplace are ok for CR10 and CR1 searches but are not good enough for the 400,000 CR2 records which frequently only give the surname and forename or forename initial ( was that an M or a W?). Its no accident that the original CR2 cards are indexed by Discharge A number.

If you were able to search by Discharge A number then it gives you the chance to bring together the  individual's personal details on his CR1 card(s) and his voyage details on his CR2 card(s) quickly.
It would provide 'pouching by database'
It also means that someone who has obtained  the Discharge A number from the NA ww1 medal card website, can do a very simple follow up on the FindMyPast site. (assuming that the number has been transcribed correctly)

What do you think?
ernestjames
Irish merchant seamen in Great War period. CR10 cards 1918-21. RNR records of Irish born seamen.

Offline seaweed

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Re: Merchant seamens records 1918-1941
« Reply #10 on: Friday 23 September 11 12:04 BST (UK) »
hello ernestjames

What do I think?
I have long ago given up trying to understand the logic employed by the National Archive. Ask two different people employed by TNA for guidance and advice and you will get two totally different answers.
I would agree with your thoughts re Dis A numbers the most reliable common denominator for finding records but that would be too simple, would it not.
All I know for certain, is, the number of queries I am receiving on this board, other forums and e-mail, concerning records from the fourth register of merchant seaman have doubled since FindMyPast put them online. I would agree a good thing, but a double edged sword.

regards
SW
Dim ateb yn well nag ateb anghywir. Nid oes dim yn ddall fel rhai nad ydynt yn dymuno gweld

RIP Roger 10 August 2022

Offline LEE2USA

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Re: Merchant seamens records 1918-1941
« Reply #11 on: Monday 27 August 12 18:32 BST (UK) »
Hi Seaweed,
I have an ancester who was a Seaman M.S. from at least 1841 to 1860.
Name of James Ogilvie Renton, wife was living in bishopwearmouth & monkwearmouth near sunderland he never showed up on the census himself as he was always at sea, can you advise me where to start looking for records of him in any ship logs or seamans records or national archives.

Any help on where to start would be appreciated

Offline seaweed

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Re: Merchant seamens records 1918-1941
« Reply #12 on: Tuesday 28 August 12 16:54 BST (UK) »
The Merchant seamans records at Find my Past, give two James Rentons born in Sunderland, one in 1812 the other in 1813 so possibly the same man. If you can download these records and it is your ancestor, we can go from there.
Dim ateb yn well nag ateb anghywir. Nid oes dim yn ddall fel rhai nad ydynt yn dymuno gweld

RIP Roger 10 August 2022


Offline LEE2USA

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Re: Merchant seamens records 1918-1941
« Reply #13 on: Tuesday 28 August 12 18:20 BST (UK) »
Hi Seaweed,
Thanks for the great start, I got the record from find my past, the james ogilvie renton born 1813 is my ancester,
but there was not a great deal of information at this site,it did Referenced BT115/9 but i am not sure what that is.
Can you tell me where I should go from here?


Offline seaweed

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Re: Merchant seamens records 1918-1941
« Reply #14 on: Tuesday 28 August 12 20:40 BST (UK) »
Good news.
It would seem he was a Master Mariner.  The series BT115 is the Alphabetical Register of Masters 1845-1854 this should make him easier to find. I guessed he was a Master. Bishopwearmouth & Monkwearmouth were up market areas, popular place's to live for ships captains and many retired there.
I can find a James Renton in the Mercantile Navy List. Passed masters certificate, number 4306, in Glasgow in 1851. Captain of the Glasgow registered vessel QUEBEC from 1851 until at least 1853. I cannot find anything on this vessel but its early days. He made several voyages in this period Port Glasgow to Quebec. He is listed in the Mercantile Navy List until at least 1864.
That's good news as this should mean his full career record should be in Lloyds Captains Register but unfortunately this is not indexed on line for surnames beginning with the letter "R" This document is available from London Metropolitan Archives and would require a visit.
From your username I assume you are domiciled in the USA. If so you may be able to find some information about him via e-mail from the National Maritime Museum Greenwich by first of all filling in this form
http://www.rmg.co.uk/researchers/library/masters-certificates-request-form
Dim ateb yn well nag ateb anghywir. Nid oes dim yn ddall fel rhai nad ydynt yn dymuno gweld

RIP Roger 10 August 2022

Offline LEE2USA

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Re: Merchant seamens records 1918-1941
« Reply #15 on: Wednesday 29 August 12 18:23 BST (UK) »
Seawed,
That all seems to fit as the census record list his wife as master mariners wife.
And one of his sons my great grand father moved to port Glasgow in around 1875 I think this must have been after James death, my family has been there ever since.
You are correct about me being domiciled in the USA, I moved here 15 years ago from just outside port Glasgow.
I really appreciate the link for the form, I will persue that right away.

My user name is also my email address at hotmail dot com
I am so glad i discovered you posts as I had no idea were to start with this.
Do you know what the numbers below the years on this document from find my past means?
Thanks very much for all this information, can you tell me where you managed to find all these details, I would really like to get a copy of any documentation that is available.

Offline seaweed

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Re: Merchant seamens records 1918-1941
« Reply #16 on: Thursday 30 August 12 17:26 BST (UK) »
Interpreting seamans tickets is not an exact science and there are several points that are not entirely understood. The ticketing system was widely unpopular and the format kept changing from the first register 1835-36 to the second series 1835/36-1844 and the third series 1845-1854.
 What I can tell you is this, he was a captain for all of the voyages mentioned. Masters certificates were not compulsory until 1850 so the date of 1851 when he obtained his masters certificate would fit nicely, although he probably had several years of experience as a master. For 1845 and 1846 the number 75 tells us all of his voyages were on Newcastle registered ships. The voyages seem to be "Home Trade" (Coasting and the near Continent) given that the crew agreements were given up at six monthly intervals.  The number 1730 is the port rotation number. No index to the port rotation numbers exists.
The 1848 voyages seem to be "Foreign Trade" but only state which British port/s the vessel arrived and sailed from.
First voyage arrived Shields port number 124 in a Newcastle registered ship on 12/April
The other two voyages were on Newcastle registered ships returning to Stockton port 93 and Sunderland port 92.
I would Email the Mitchell Library Glasgow to see if they have details of the Glasgow registered vessel QUEBEC and if they have anything on your ancestor.
If you wish to go deeper into your ancestors sea going career you would need to visit and research in several  UK archives. Unless you are planning a visit in the near future then it seems pointless giving you any references. I will however endeavour to obtain a crew agreement for QUEBEC next time I visit Kew.
I will send details from the Mercantile Navy List bye mail. PS. Will send via PM as your email address is not responding.
Dim ateb yn well nag ateb anghywir. Nid oes dim yn ddall fel rhai nad ydynt yn dymuno gweld

RIP Roger 10 August 2022

Offline LEE2USA

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Re: Merchant seamens records 1918-1941
« Reply #17 on: Monday 24 December 12 17:16 GMT (UK) »
Hi SEAWEED,
I have been looking for more infomation on my ancestor Master Seaman James Ogivie Renton and contacted the Mitchell Library by e-mail like you suggested back is aug/sept but didn't get any reply from them. Archives@glasgowlife.org was the e-mail link i got from the mitchell web site, is this the correct one or is there another way to contact them? The best information i have has come from you so i was hoping you could point me towards any other avenues i could follow to find more information.
Many thanks for your time
Lee
LEE2USA@HOTMAIL.COM