Brickwall - Eleonor Lander

[Quelquechosedautre]

Incidentally, during the First World War three of our Australian cousins turned up as a surprise on my family.  My grandmother clearly remembered it and told me about it when she was alive.  one of them was called EARL.  Is this connected to you?

- R

[Quelquechosedautre]

Hi...

spouse:   Alice Gilbert
spouse's residence:   Salford, Manchester, Lancaster...

It's not Lancaster, but LANCASHIRE.

And this ties in well with the idea of JOHN GILBERT being her father.

The Bridgewater Canal was nearing completion in 1784 and near to Salford, next to Manchester.

- R

[Quelquechosedautre]

Here's the web page for John Gilbert

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Gilbert_(agent)

- R

[avm228]

Incidentally, consider Anne Lydia.  SHe was REGISTERED at St Pancras, but actually gave LAMBETH as her place of birth at her marriage.

St Pancras is a business centre or at least would have been then.  Lambeth would (and is) a residential area.

It looks very much as the hyper-busy George Moseley Lander popped into the local birth registry at, say, a lunchtime, when he actually lived in Lambeth.  A check of the census returns confirms this.

- R

A birth could only be registered in the district in which it had taken place.  The birth certificate will give the precise address of the birth, but in the meantime this appears to be the relevant baptism:

Baptism, St Paul's, St Pancras

12 February 1868

Anne Lydia and Alice Jessie, daughters of George Moseley LANDER (solicitor) and Susannah, of 2 St Paul's Crescent.


The family had moved to Brixton (Lambeth) by 1871 - the birthplaces of the children show that the move must have taken place before the birth of baby Eliza (8 months old in 1871) whose birthplace was Brixton in contrast to the older children who were all born in St Pancras. So Anne Lydia moved to the Lambeth area as an infant/toddler - perhaps not surprising if in later life she mistakenly thought she had been born there.

1871 ref: RG10/676/56/12.

[bryn394]

Hello -R,
Your reply to my query is most welcome, especially from a relative.
Firstly, if you have not already read it, get hold of & read the book by Hugh Malet  "Bridgewater the Canal Duke  1736-1803". There is a lot of info in it on the Gilberts; the roll John played in the construction of the canal, it also debunks the theory that Brindley was the main engineer.
Sourced from the book is the following - John Gilbert married Jydia Bill, father William Bill, land agent to Lord Gower. (this where the name Lydia comes from)
John & Lydia had 3 sons, Robert, John, & George. The boys attanded Manchester Grammer. Robert & John were apprenticed to Mathew Bolton Jnr.
In the historical notes of the book Malet writes - "That is why George Moseley Lander, who was descended from both the Gilberts and the Bill, could write so emphatically in 1883........."
I have been trying to find out where the Moseley came from, it must be a family name as George's twin was John Gilbert (his mothers grandfather ?). Alice Gilbert's father was George Gilbert, (John's youngest son ?) hence the George.
At this stage i have no definate evidence linking George Moseley Lander with John Gilbert.
      bryn......

[Quelquechosedautre]

Firstly how are you sure that Alice Gilbert was not John's direct daughter?

Also, do you have any ideas about the Landers?  in this might be the clue to the Moseley name.

[Quelquechosedautre]

A Theory of Mine....

Consider these facts...

- In this era, loyal subjects would often call their children after the King/Queen
- They were often unimaginative about names.  George, Thomas etc., but names like Astroflash or Apple would be unheard of, yet George Moseley Landers named one of his children "Philadelphia", an unheard of name.
- I have found one record of a Landers being a "Retired land owner" at 40 years old?
- I have found another, possibly he same, living at an old age with a young family, as if they were doing i out of charity.
- Landers is comparatively rare in England.
- THere are various references to Landers back to 1782 or so, and then it goes cold, with only a couple of references to a family of Landers in Dorset.
- Landers is a very extensive name in the USA and many Landers played a big role in its early, pre-revolutionary history... and he main place where the Landers were located was...Pennsylvannia, he capital of which is Philadelphia, the city that was the capital of the USA before Washington DC.

Theory...are we the opposite of everyone else?  Given the timing of the US Revolution in 1776, were the Landers a loyalist family that had to flee the USA like many others, to return to England?

- R

[Quelquechosedautre]

I look at the GIlbert records and see a thousand piece jigsaw...If only I could fit it together.  Records repeatedly mention Walgrave on the Sowe.  Sadly, some imbecile flattened the graveyard and turfed it in 1955.

Even so, as a tiny village, and to have this family so persistently there and to be affording weddings etc, it would give the impression of a wealthy family with a big house somewhere in the town.  I wonder if there are land records somewhere that could help?

- R

[Quelquechosedautre]

Just how sure are you that the info in the book is correct?

THe actual records that I have checked on line do not seem to tally.  Remember, the book was written several decades before computerised scans and searches.

Walgrave on the Sowe would have been a tiny village that flooded regularly and had a population of just a few dozen.  The possibility that there were an army of Thomases all running up records that don't comply with the book seems unlikely.

THere WAS a Thomas and Mary, but it appears to be a generation BEFORE the parents of THomas.

I have been through dozens of records on line and some clear and obvious themes are developing which I shall need to check and sort out...and if that lot is skewed, maybe the stuff about Alice Gilbert is too.

Finally, there is an ancient coat of arms associated with the Gilbert family.  It might be possible to confirm the lineage using the registerations made at the Royal College of Arms in Victoria St in London.

- R