Author Topic: FLETCHER family - were they gypsies, travellers?  (Read 25743 times)

Offline Ninian

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FLETCHER family - were they gypsies, travellers?
« on: Thursday 13 October 11 21:41 BST (UK) »
Hi

I've just started tracing the ancestry of Harriet Fletcher who married into our Russell family in 1880.  Harriet was described in the census as a hawker.  Tracing her family back through the censuses many of her family were tinmen, tinkers or braziers but it is only in the 1841 census that any are described as 'Gypsy' :- Henry Fletcher on 1841 C was described as Gypsy and his address was '1st tent in lane, Stow, Huntingdonshire'.   Although they seemed to spend quite a bit of time in Warwickshire, especially Warwick itself they seem to move around a great deal:  Northampton, Bucks.,  Oxfordshire, Huntingdonshire etc etc.

I'm quite excited at the idea that we might have gypsy blood, but can I call our Fletcher line gypsies or travellers?  What is a gypsy? is it different from a traveller? and how do a find out more about travellers/gypsies and their lifestyle in the 19th century?  I've browsed the links on this site (though many are broken) and some of the threads but most people are more expert than I and I'm having trouble finding out the basics.  Can anyone help me by pointing me in the right direction please?  Am I right in thinking that there is no way I will be able to trace then further back than the 1841 census without visiting every Record Office in the whole of England?!

Any help gratefully received!

Ninian
Roberts (Llandanwg, Llanfihangel y traethau, Ffestiniog, Merionydd);  Jones (Bethesda, Caernarfonshire; Llandyfrydog, Angelsey); Jones, Davies (Bagillt, Holywell, Flintshire);  Turner, Bardsley (Ashton, Lancashire);  Fielding (Darley Dale, Derbyshire); Brockelbank (Louth, Lincolnshire); Allen (Ridgmont, Bedfordshire)

Offline rob g

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Re: FLETCHER FAMILY - WERE THEY GYPSIES, TRAVELLERS?
« Reply #1 on: Friday 14 October 11 10:49 BST (UK) »
hi, ninian, i am a romany traveller, so may be able to help you a little, first there is a good site at liverpool uni archives, lots of photos etc, sorry i forgotten the web site but you will find it easily. as to the difference, between gypsy travellers etc. it is too big a story to tell, but i will give you some basics, first it was a crime to be born a gypsy! and punishable by death! in parts of europe. in 16/1700s we came as a kind of refugees to england.lots setteling in the epping forrest and london ares, but spreading out all over britain as the years past. bringing metel woodworking and other skills with us. at that time you had to have a type of ticket to work in a parish, given by a warden of of the parish. this was punched with a spike, like a old but pass. and it gave you the right to work in the area. without this you could be locked up/fined, hence pikey, for spikey any one working in the parish with a spiked(punched ticket) these could be hawkers, or gypsy, or travelling salesmen. as good sites to camp were rare, they all tended to use the same camps, lane roadsides, woods etc, so eventully they inter married. and the term gypsy became generic, because of the predudice if asked were they gypsies. most said no just travelling. i,e travellers. but there are some really old romany names, that go all the way back and still travel today. and we know the real romany folki. some settle but still call themselfs romany and live by our codes.we tend to be secretive because we need to be. try living in a world where you have no rights at all? and are constantly hounded, you will tend to keep to yourself. any way things got a bit worse when new age travellers/ hippie types began calling themselfs travellers, so to differenciate we began calling our self romany travellers. and as we have gained a bit of pride we can now once again call our selfs gypsy with out fear of any prosocutions. there are far to many other things to tell and it would take ages, surffice to say we are a bit like asians in that we are all one, but there are castes within the romany gypsy people, and only we know who is really romany. by the way as a bit of intrest, in this country we are nearly all of the clan of rom, in western europe. they are sinte, in eastern europe they are roma, darker skinned, than rom or sinte in general, so as you can see it is a very mixed bunch, theres lots to learn such as language traditions dress and moral codes. but i hope this as given you a taste to start with. as to the going from gypsy to hawker, it was probebly to hide his roots still happens today!  also romany folk did/ do change name many resones, and will try to avoid censuses etc and sometimes did not register a birth, my own mother born 1928  in a romany wagon was not registerd til her wedding in 1949? this may explain why its hard to find your family, but i do think you have the blood in you. as there was and are lots of romany travellers in warwickshire. pardon my spelling, and grammer self taught to read and write, so not that good. custy bok, (good luck in romany) with your search.  rob..g
romany history, mitchell family history. Earthenware. general . And horse. I dealers/hawkers. market trading.  lancashire. cumbria. staffordshire.scotland. paternal, side. wilson. lee. burton. miller .burnside. Smith. varey. howard. Jones. Lowther. Evens. Ward. Dale.maternal, side. miller cumbria, stewert. mitchell. allan. Ireland. donaghue, Kelly. Murphy. Young. Plus many others. .

Offline CitizenSmith

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Re: FLETCHER FAMILY - WERE THEY GYPSIES, TRAVELLERS?
« Reply #2 on: Friday 14 October 11 20:46 BST (UK) »
The Fletchers who travelled in the counties you mentioned are definitely Romany Gypsies. So you might find it useful to get hold of a specialist research guide to help you through the basics and show you the many sources available to you.

There's one by Alan McGowan called 'On the Gypsy Trail', published by the Romany and Traveller Family History Society (www.rtfhs.org.uk) and one by Sharon Floate called 'My Ancestors Were Gypsies', published by the Society of Genealogists (3rd edition, 2010).

You might consider joining the Romany and Traveller FHS too. I know there are a number of members who are researching the name Fletcher and associated families in central England.

I'd definitely get in touch with the Gypsy Collections at the University of Liverpool – as Rob G has suggested – as you could find they have your Fletcher family tree ready and waiting for you. That's because they hold a large number of Romany Gypsy family genealogies, gathered as oral history from the Gypsies themselves in the 19th century and recorded and deposited at Liverpool, plus a large number of family photos. 

Best wishes
Sharon
Smith - East Anglia & Lancashire
Taylor - East Anglia
Draper
Hope
Shaw
Gray
Boswell
Lovell
Robinson
Chilcott
All Blackpool Gypsies
"Royal Epping Forest Gypsies": ball-giving group
"Borrow's Gypsies": the people that the novelist George Borrow (1803-1881) knew and wrote about

Offline Pastmagic

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Re: FLETCHER FAMILY - WERE THEY GYPSIES, TRAVELLERS?
« Reply #3 on: Friday 14 October 11 21:28 BST (UK) »
http://gypsyjib.wetpaint.com/

lots of interesting info.

PM


Offline Ninian

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Re: FLETCHER FAMILY - WERE THEY GYPSIES, TRAVELLERS?
« Reply #4 on: Friday 14 October 11 22:04 BST (UK) »
Hi Rob, Sharon and PM
Many thanks - this is brilliant.  Rob's intro was really useful and you've given me piles of info to check out.  Another gypsy family - the Smiths married into our Fletchers - Isobella Smith born 1833 in Burford Oxfordshire, daughter of Wisdom Smith b. in Hook Norton in 1785.  So hopefully I'll be able to check out the Smiths as well as the Fletchers. It's useful to know that births might not be registered, so I won't get too hung up if I can't find a certificate.  I have noticed that the Fletchers and Smiths were very consistent in recording their ages from one census to another - much better than my non-gypsy ancestors.

I'm having a bit of trouble with names given on the censuses.  Many of the Fletchers and Smiths seem to have very common names for the time (Catherine, Charles, James, Eliza etc) but some names I can't make out at all - presumably these are unusual names confined to gypsy familes?  'Wisdom' was easy enough to read on the census but others I can't work out at all.  I think one name is Leatrice and another seems to be Bansy or Baucy.  Others I can't even make a guess as to what the name is.  Hopefully some of the sites/books will provide gypsy names, so I can work out what the names are.   

Ninian
Roberts (Llandanwg, Llanfihangel y traethau, Ffestiniog, Merionydd);  Jones (Bethesda, Caernarfonshire; Llandyfrydog, Angelsey); Jones, Davies (Bagillt, Holywell, Flintshire);  Turner, Bardsley (Ashton, Lancashire);  Fielding (Darley Dale, Derbyshire); Brockelbank (Louth, Lincolnshire); Allen (Ridgmont, Bedfordshire)

Offline CitizenSmith

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Re: FLETCHER FAMILY - WERE THEY GYPSIES, TRAVELLERS?
« Reply #5 on: Friday 14 October 11 22:46 BST (UK) »
If you can let me know the census year/s and place/s that you're having problems with in reading the names, I'll see if I can decipher them. 

The Oxfordshire Wisdom Smiths have been well-documented and - again - quite a few RTFHS members are researching this family. I'm sure they'd be pleased to share their information.

You'll also find Fletchers and Smiths cropping up in local newspapers in Oxfordshire and surrounding counties. The RTFHS has published two books of newspaper extracts containing references to Gypsies, Hawkers, Travellers and Fairground people in the area from the mid-18th to the early 20th centuries. Both are the work of Keith Chandler. You'll find details of the books on the RTFHS website in the Publications section.

Best wishes
Sharon

Smith - East Anglia & Lancashire
Taylor - East Anglia
Draper
Hope
Shaw
Gray
Boswell
Lovell
Robinson
Chilcott
All Blackpool Gypsies
"Royal Epping Forest Gypsies": ball-giving group
"Borrow's Gypsies": the people that the novelist George Borrow (1803-1881) knew and wrote about

Offline Ninian

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Re: FLETCHER FAMILY - WERE THEY GYPSIES, TRAVELLERS?
« Reply #6 on: Saturday 15 October 11 16:28 BST (UK) »
Hi Sharon
That’s an offer I can’t refuse!  I’d be grateful for any ideas about what the names might be.  There might not be gypsy names it might just be my eyesight but I can’t work them out.

Here they are:

In the 1841 census   
Henry Fletcher aged 35 Gypsy was living at “First tent in the lane, Little Catworth, Stow, Huntingdonshire”
His 15 year old looks like Leatrice?
The youngest child looks like ?Baucy  or ?Bancy

By 1891 Harriet Fletcher, Henry’s granddaughter, was married (into a non gypsy family I think) and was living at 8 Monk Street, Warwick, and is recorded as:
Harriet   RUSSELL   Wife   30   Married        Hawker*   Born Warwickshire, Warwick
She has a son aged 6 whose name I can’t work out at all.

By 1901 she has remarried and is living in 12 ?Jeuts Building, Salterford, St Mary’s, Warwick, as:
Harriet   GREEN   Wife   39   Married   Charwoman   Warwickshire, Warwick
She has a 6 year old son with the surname Russell. Is his first name  Nodger?

Do you know which Oxfordshire local newspapers are the most likely to have references to the Fletchers and Smiths?  I have access to the 19thC Gales Newspapers Archives in the library and I think there are some Oxfordshire papers there that might be worth me looking at if I know which ones to look for.  But I will try and get the RTFHS book. I see it’s the RTFHS Open Day today …. But I’m not going to get to West Sussex from Wales in time!

As this could be turning into an expensive business, I think the Keith Chandler books at £16.50 and £13.50 are something for the Christmas present list but I think I will get one of the other books now.  The My Ancestors were Gypsies book is bigger and, at £10, I s’pose more comprehensive?  Would that cover more of the info in the McGowan book or should I splash out a further £3.50 for the McGowan book as well?

Something that I can’t quite work out on the censuses but is not related to names is that in 1841 Dennis Fletcher, aged 6, was living in Roade, Northamptonshire with his brother James aged 19, a Tinker and an Isobella Fletcher aged 23 (might be James’ wife or a sister), but Dennis’ parents and the rest of his brothers and sisters were living in the First tent in the lane, Stow, Huntingdonshire.  I’m fairly certain I’ve got the right families, but is it usual for young children to be separate from the rest of the family travelling with a brother quite a distance from the rest of the family?

These websites people have mentioned are amazing.  I’ve hardly scratched the surface of them yet and my head is spinning.

Many thanks, Ninian
Roberts (Llandanwg, Llanfihangel y traethau, Ffestiniog, Merionydd);  Jones (Bethesda, Caernarfonshire; Llandyfrydog, Angelsey); Jones, Davies (Bagillt, Holywell, Flintshire);  Turner, Bardsley (Ashton, Lancashire);  Fielding (Darley Dale, Derbyshire); Brockelbank (Louth, Lincolnshire); Allen (Ridgmont, Bedfordshire)

Offline rob g

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Re: FLETCHER FAMILY - WERE THEY GYPSIES, TRAVELLERS?
« Reply #7 on: Saturday 15 October 11 21:19 BST (UK) »
hello again ninain, pleased to see you have so many replies. when you start theses things it can be a bit of a whirl! my g.g.mother was annie wilson, nee lee. and i am cousin to lots of the smiths. but it is your romany connections that are interesting. i hope you do some research and find links that make you proud of your heritage., as around 70% of british people have romany links. it is a pity folks dont look a little beyond the press headlines, that seem to be everywhere today. if you would like any romany life info, give me a shout. but it seems your in there with the best! bye.    rob,, 
romany history, mitchell family history. Earthenware. general . And horse. I dealers/hawkers. market trading.  lancashire. cumbria. staffordshire.scotland. paternal, side. wilson. lee. burton. miller .burnside. Smith. varey. howard. Jones. Lowther. Evens. Ward. Dale.maternal, side. miller cumbria, stewert. mitchell. allan. Ireland. donaghue, Kelly. Murphy. Young. Plus many others. .

Offline CitizenSmith

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Re: FLETCHER FAMILY - WERE THEY GYPSIES, TRAVELLERS?
« Reply #8 on: Tuesday 18 October 11 16:05 BST (UK) »
Hi Ninian

I've now had a chance to look at the census returns:

1841, Stow, Hunts
I think the 15-year-old is Lemantince. There's a batch of similar sounding names in Romany communities: Lementeni/Lemantina/Lamentina/Clementina. So perhaps this is the enumerator's best guess at what he heard from Henry when he took down their details.

The name of the youngest child I read as 'Bansy'. This looks like a shortened form of something. B and V are very close in pronunciation so it could even be an abbreviated form of something like Vanslow, a name you find in several Romany families.

In the neighbouring tents there are Loveridges, Bulls and Smiths: all well-known Gypsy surnames. I'd keep an eye on these as they're likely to be relatives – as you'll see below...

1891, Warwick
I think the 6-year-old is Ernest. And did you notice that there are Loveridges at No. 9 Monk Street and a George Fletcher and family on the previous page at 6 Compton Road?

1901, Warwick
I agree with your reading of the 6-year-old's name, Nodger. An odd one, but again perhaps a shortened form.

On newspapers: Jackson's Oxford Journal is available on the Gale site. So it's worth searching for Fletchers, Loveridges etc there.

On the two family history guides: you're right - My Ancestors Were Gypsies covers more sources and in more detail. It also has up-to-date web addresses etc and includes things like the 1911 census.

On Dennis Fletcher being apart from his parents in 1841: there are many possibilities. Perhaps Isabella and James just happened to have a bed free on census night! Have you tried looking for him again in other years?

And finally, I took a look at www.familysearch.org.uk to see if I could spot any baptisms for the children of Henry and Catherine Fletcher indexed there - and I was in luck. So it's worth checking them out and then heading to the appropriate parish registers to see the originals.

Also included on the same site is a reference to the marriage of a Henry Fletcher and a Catherine Loveridge which took place on 12 March 1822 at Bletchley, Bucks. Again, it will need checking in the original source. But I think that may explain why Loveridges are to be found close to the Fletchers in 1841 and again in 1891.

Best wishes
Sharon

 
Smith - East Anglia & Lancashire
Taylor - East Anglia
Draper
Hope
Shaw
Gray
Boswell
Lovell
Robinson
Chilcott
All Blackpool Gypsies
"Royal Epping Forest Gypsies": ball-giving group
"Borrow's Gypsies": the people that the novelist George Borrow (1803-1881) knew and wrote about