Fitzgeralds and the Gherardini.

[jpadjan]

I have recently written and published a paper on the origin of the Geraldines.  You might be interested in reading it.  Here is a description of it:

"The origin of the Geraldines, or Fitzgeralds, of Ireland, has been debated for hundreds of years.  This paper, which includes a full bibliography, aims to set the record straight once and for all.  The author presents new facts and discusses primary documents that have been overlooked or ignored by other researchers, including documents written in the Italian language.  He makes a strong case that the Gherardini of Florence were, in fact, the ancestors of the Geraldines, or Fitzgeralds, the Fitzmaurices, the Desmonds, the Keatings, and the rest.   His arguments are strengthened by the results of the DNA tests of the descendants of a Keating." 

Here is a link to the paper:

https://www.scribd.com/doc/257361641/The-Tuscan-Origin-of-the-Geraldines


My paper is the culmination of years of research on the Geraldines.  I hope it helps to set the record straight.     


Joseph Amyot Padjan

[brianoleary85]

Interesting, I would be quite interested in reading that book.

I was previously struck by the fact that many Fitzgeralds fall into the E1b1b1 yDNA haplogroup, which they share with Fitzmaurices from Kerry (both the Fitzgeralds and Fitzmaurices are recorded to have been descended in the male line from separate sons of Walter fitz Gerald who came to Ireland in 1169 - yDNA is transmitted, like surnames, from father to son and so on). It would seem exceedingly likely then (but not 100% certain until further testing is done) that the most recent common ancestor of both families, Maurice fitz Gerald who was born circa 1100 AD, also had this E1b1b1 yDNA.

E1b1b1 is an extremely rare DNA profile in Ireland indeed, and is in fact most common today in Sudan/Egypt and Somalia/Ethiopia, an extremely strange anomaly for a family "native" to north-west Europe today. This would suggest that the Fitzgeralds male-line ancestors lived in Africa approximately 2000 years ago (while most of the rest of us Irish have to look back over 20,000 years since our ancient ancestors left Africa).

While this does not by any means equate to the Fitzgeralds being the same family as the Gherardini, it does beg the question as to how a family bearing the predominantly E1b1b1 DNA profile come to settle in Ireland? Given both the Greek and Roman dominance of Egypt in antiquity, it does not seem completely outlandish to suggest that a North African individual migrated through Greece or Rome 1500-2500 years ago and whose descendants ended up in the Italian penninsula at the same time that the allegedly Tuscan "Otho", progenitor of the Fitzgeralds and Fitzmaurices, is said to have migrated to England in the early 11th century. That specific scenario is complete speculation on my part though!

All this doesn't prove any connection to the Gherardini per se however! I see there are some Gherardinis alive in Italy today, it would be interesting if one took a yDNA test to see if there is any link between the two families. (Personally I doubt a connection to that precise family, but it would be interesting nonetheless!)

[jpadjan]

Thank you for your interest in my paper. 

I agree it is interesting that the Fitzgeralds and Fitzmaurices you mention belong to haplogroup E1b1b1, but since there are other Fitzgeralds and Fitzmaurices in Ireland that belong to different haplogroups, we unfortunately (as you know) can't confidently say at this time what Walter fitz Other's haplogroup is.  (I realize you're not saying it's 100% certain Maurice fitz Gerald was E1b1b1.)  And, unfortunately, we may never know what his haplogroup is. 

I should say (to everyone) that I wrote my paper in part to show that most people who discuss the controversy of the origin of the Geraldines are ill-informed on the subject (just like those who have written about it were and are) and continue to spread incorrect information about it.  Everyone, or almost everyone, thinks, for example, that the story of the Tuscan origin of the Geraldines traces back to Father O'Daly.  They think, for instance, that the documents in Meehan's Appendix are fakes, or they think that Father O'Daly put the Appendix at the end of Meehan's translation of O'Daly's book.  They have never heard of Richard Stanihurst.  They don't know that in 1481 Cristoforo Landino really did write about the Gherardini brothers' going to Ireland.  And there is much more that they do not know who have not examined all the available and relevant documents.  I find myself compelled to straighten out this mess insofar as it is possible to do so.  Why?  It is unjust to hold an innocent man, such as Father O'Daly, guilty of charges leveled by people who have themselves failed to examine the case thoroughly enough to understand it in all its complexity, and enough to realize that they are holding a man responsible for an offense of which he is not guilty.

Will absolute and irrefutable proof that the Geraldines were descended from the Gherardini ever be found?  We do not know.  It really does not matter.  Setting the record straight about who said what does matter so long as we blame others for offenses we merely perceive through ignorance.

The other reasons for my writing this paper will become apparent to anyone who reads it.

[brianoleary85]

I look forward to being able to read that paper in the future, as I'm quite interested in the history of the family in general terms, and have read the 4th Duke of Leinster's history "The Earls of Kildare and their ancestors". So well done on that work.

I think your work on taking an in-depth look at the documents about the alleged Gherardini origin is a most welcome development. Very often the denial by particular historians of a family's "origin myth" becomes as great a myth as the original and is taken for granted. It is always good to revisit the original documents and examine how various historians and commentators have used those documents. So in this regard, I'm looking forward to reading it.

At the start of this thread, someone mentioned Sean Murphy calling the Gherardini origin "complete nonsense" or words to that effect. Personally, I think Sean Murphy has done great work in deconstructing several examples of "bad genealogy", but in my opinion he also tends to "tilt at windmills" and throws the baby out with the bad water in many cases (if you'll forgive the plethora of mixed metaphors there!). I'd be interested in seeing what his evidence is against the claim.

(Just to be clear, while I personally believe the Tuscan origin claim is extremely believable, I am range from completely neutral to slightly sceptical about the Gherardini claim - which is why I would be very interested to read your work, as I am very much open to the argument).

Yes, you're right as I mentioned about the DNA not being 100% certain. Hopefully we could in the future move towards even more certainty, though it is yet to be seen how certain any evidence could be. It would be very interesting if DNA samples could be got from the Duke of Leinster (FitzGerald) and the Marquess of Lansdowne (FitzMaurice) who both have genealogical papertrails back to the 12th century to see how their DNA is connected. It would also be interesting to get more DNA data from Carews living in the UK who are also said to have descended in the male-line from Maurice fitz Gerald. (Baron Carew claims descent from this family, and though very likely, I would also think it extremely likely that the family may descend from the Gaelic O Carrain of Moburne, Tipperary, who adopted the name Carew and claimed the Carew inheritence of lands in Ireland in the 15th/16th centuries - again, another question which DNA could possibly solve).

Well done again on your work!

[jpadjan]

Thank you for your intelligent assessment of the controversy.

If we find out some day that the Duke of Leinster (FitzGerald) and the Marquess of Lansdowne (FitzMaurice) belong to the same haplogroup, and find a Gherardini in Florence with a paper trail back to the 11th or 12th century who belongs to the same haplogroup that they do, and if all their haplotypes are close matches, we will, I think, have sufficient evidence to state confidently what haplogroup Walter fitz Other belongs to and can rest our case that the families are definitely related.  I hope such a day comes. 

Thanks again for your compliments on my work. 

[Purpeller]

One problem with a DNA analysis now is that the current dukes of Leinster are likely no longer the same Y DNA - the 5th Duke's wife had a well-publicised affair and the 7th Duke, her youngest son is not considered to be the Duke's son.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_FitzGerald,_5th_Duke_of_Leinster

[Crissy88]

Does anyone here have any ideas of the connections between these families or can they be discredited?

In searching records for the name Windsor I'm always brought back to these names. Here's an interesting link. http://fitzmaurice-family.com/ances.html

[Crissy88]

Actually they would be my ancestors if my research is correct.

[mAnic7imprESsive_]

The Gherardini myth has been debunked as fifteenth century fabrication. Yes, there were Gherardini(s) that came to Ireland with the Normans. No, they are not connected to Walter FitzOther.

Other is an entirely different name from Otho. Other came to the Isles via Norman Conquest. The Germanic name “Other” in contrast to the Latin “Otho” actually has Norse origins.

Walter FitzOther is described as nothing other than a Norman and his name is linked to Western Normandy. One speculation that exist is he may have been a brother of Ranulf FitzOther who is mentioned in the acts of Saint-Etienne de Caen.

Caen was a city that became rampant with Norse migration and was settled by number of Rollo’s companions.

There’s also speculation that Walter FitzOther was actually Anglo-Saxon, if not a descendant of Ohthere, the Norwegian traveler who was in King Alfred’s court, featured on season 6 of History Channel’s “Vikings”

We can’t really know the true origins of Walter FitzOther other than the fact that he descended from a man with some variant of the name Other.