Charles William PAKENHAM

[malcez]

This is my second post.

I would make a plea to Guy to please give some more info (in fact all the info please) on the gravestones at your farm in Patensie.  Every tidbit.  This is really critical information to the Pakenham and Thompson saga.

We have information that James Black chr 22/8/1808 Haddington, Scotland (son of Rev Benoni Black chr 6/6/1762 Jedburgh, Scotland and Agnes Henderson b 11/5/1769 Jedburgh) had a sister called Katherine Packenham Black b13/7/1810 Haddington.  And here's the kicker:  his wife was called Catherine Pakenham b14/2/1816 Cape Town, the daughter of Thomas Pakenham b unknown and Margaret Sloan b1794 Glasgow, Scotland.

I have no idea why James Black's sister apparently had a middle name of "Packenham", unless the people who have generated these wikitrees on the Black family online have made some grievous errors in their research.

More in my next post.  Hopefully the rootschat system engine will allow me to contact other members on this thread after my third post.  I could talk all day about Pakenham, Black, Thompson in South Africa ...

[malcez]

This is my third post.

I would like to pose a few questions here, regarding the name Rowland.

1. How did the son of James Black and Catherine Pakenham get the name JAMES ROWLAND BLACK?  We know that William Rowland Thompson was the third and final husband of Margaret Sloan.  But he had no blood relationship that we are aware of with James Rowland Black.  So how did this James get the middle name of ROWLAND?  I have researched the ancestry of James Black as far as I can.  His father was Rev Benoni Black 1762-1828 and mother was Agnes Henderson 1769-1822.  Benoni's parents were William Black and Janet Scott.  Agnes' father was John Henderson but the mother is unknown, possibly Agnes Turnbull.  My (very tenuous) theory is that William Rowland Thompson may have been either related in blood to either Thomas Pakenham or to Margaret Sloan, for there to be a grandson with the middle name of Rowland.

2. The bizarreness continues.  There is a record of a Henry Rowland Brown b 13/6/1878 and d1963 Port Elizabeth, son of James Benoni Black Brown b1839 Haddington d15/11/1912 Bournemouth, England and Jessie Marjorie Black  b16/6/1847 d13/11/1926.  How did he get his middle name of ROWLAND?  James and Jessie were first cousins, married 1/7/1871 Trinity Presbyterian Church, Grahamstown.  James' parents were Henry Duncan Brown b1/6/1810 Haddington d15/8/1861 Haddington and Katherine Packenham Black (sister of James Black) b13/7/1810 Haddington d21/9/1882 Bloemfontein.  Jessie's parents were James Black (brother of Katherine Packenham Black) and Catherine Pakenham.  Henry Rowland Brown married Mary Louise Violet Northcroft and had a son and a daughter who also retained the middle name of ROWLAND, viz James Lennox Rowland Brown and Erua Rowland Brown.

I know it is all very confusing with the tree of Blacks, Browns, Packenhams and Pakenhams ...

Sometimes it helps to know the witnesses to the baptisms of these individuals like James Rowland Brown who died in Hankey on 28/8/1891, and Henry Rowland Brown b13.6.1878 to give a clue as to why this name of Rowland might be so important.

I've tried to find the Rowland family in Scotland and Ireland and so far have drawn a blank.  In addition, because we know that Thomas Pakenham and Margaret Sloan's son was Thomas Harrison Pakenham, I've also tried to find the Harrison family in Ireland and also drawn a blank.  There is one link between the Pakenhams and the Harrisons but that is much later, in the 1860's from memory - something like "Emily Blanche Harrison".

Someone please help?

Regards

[scanlen]

Hello, Wildcats.Have seen several of your posts re this subject and thought this might help;the Pakenham Village website has a pdf download for the full Pakenham family tree from 1100AD (all 2.5metres of it!)which might help.I am also on the trail of Grahamstown linked Scanlens and Pakenhams and think Thomas Pakenham 3rd son of George(Edward)1717-1768 might be an option.Another name that keeps catching my eye is William Pakenham 1782-1811(son of Edward Michael ,2nd Lord Longford, who was a naval cadet from age 13 and travelled to India among other places, he drowned off Donegal when his ship HMS Saldanah sunk (but then unless the fact that your Pakenham definitely died in Grahamstown it might be possible.)I'm not sure if any of this will help but hope so.PS: if you have found anything new in the interim I'd be most interested to hear. ???PPS:The Albany Museum in Grahamstown has a genealogist who has helped me in the past (for a fee of course)

[wildcats13]

Sorry for the delay in replying but only recently returned home from hospital. I will pass this information onto my sister-in-law who is sorting out her family ancestors, and thanks for your input.
Wildcats13

[Harpgirl]

Apologies for a query on a tangent ... my question is in relation to the family names buried.
(Please point me to the right direction, If I've come to the wrong place.) 

"Pakenhams buried on our farm Saagkuilen Portion 3 at Patensie, Eastern Cape, South Africa. ... other Beans, a Damant, a Kirby and a Paterson. Robert Thompson Pakenham is buried at nearby Hankey"

KIRBY is the name I'm most interested in, as I'd found in the "South African Military History Society Easter Cape Branch Newsletter No.83 August 2011" http://samilitaryhistory.org/11/p11augne.html

Lt Col Walter Houx Kirby, MC, who was born in San Diego, California. His family settled in Hankey during 1898, where his father was secretary to the mission station. In 1906, Walter left home and found his way to Kimberley

I've been able to find very little on Edward Williams Kirby, nor his wife Emmaline (Emma) nee. Smith. 3 of their children were born in the USA: Walter, Harold (died. WW1) and Bruce - of which I've sourced Marriage and Death/Probate records for these. Perhaps the KIRBY located in Saagkuilen Portion 3 at Patensie, belongs to my research?

The direct family connection I'm seeking is that of "Hector Durbrow 'Tony' Kirby", with a Death Record, but no details of family. He was b. 26 Apr 1904 • Hankey, and d. 30 MAY 1973 • Riverside, Bulawayo. His granddaughter understands he was married twice - I only have the record of his second marriage.

Long Shot, but any information is greatly appreciated.

Kind regards
Meg.

[wildcats13]

Hi Meg,

I have found more details about Hector's family from 2nd marriage.
Susan Margaret Kirby first marriage was to Michael Grant. Could find no children. Second marriage was to Daniel Christoffel Delport. Children were (1) Kathryn Megan Delport who married Hamish McRae. (2) Joslene Helen Delport.

Penelope Rose Kirby's first marriage was to Barry David Tratt who was born in 1955 & died in 1985 in Durban KwaZulu, Natal. South Africa (30 years). Children were Dawn Lisa Tratt born in Durban, who married Yaakov Bokay.
Penelope's second marriage was to Daniel Lester Graham Nel. No other details.
Wildcats

[Harpgirl]

Thanks Wildcats. More great info.

Yes, this is the family I'm assisting with the research on.
I don't suppose there is any further details on Edward William(s) Kirby and Emmaline Kirby?
Edward was the father of 3 known children, born in the USA: Walter, Harold (died. WW1) and Bruce - of which I've sourced Marriage and Death/Probate records for these. Also a query regarding the KIRBY located in Saagkuilen Portion 3 at Patensie, and if they too belong to my research?

Hector Durbrow Kirby's second marriage was to Rosemary Margaret Halse, and this family has been extensively researched by others. 

Now to my Other dead-end -
Susan Margaret Kirby is currently married to Michael Grant, with no children.
Susan's first was to Daniel Christoffel Delport. Their Children are (1) Kathryn Megan Delport married to Hamish McRae, and (2) Joelene Helen Delport (the friend I'm doing the research for).

I was able to find Death record for Daniel Christoffel Delport on https://www.identitynumber.org/research/ - direct record https://www.identitynumber.org/research/death-records-results.php?id=4290318.

Unfortunately I don't have a membership, and I'm unable to find any further information. Joelene believes he died 23 Aug 1993 in Pietermaritzburg, and possibly an Uncle 'Richard' Delport, who may have died in Durban. She believes there is also a sister - Delyse, and the name James Erasmus, or to that effect.

Sorry to be so ambiguous - but any information would be received graciously! 

Thanks again,
Meg

[kencorder]

Hi there,  My name is Ken Corder and I am married to Sandra Anne (nee Thompson) the daughter of William Rowland Thompson who had the DNA test that you arranged some years back.  Speaking to Rowland it seems he never received the results himself in electronic format. Is there something you are able to share.

I have the Thompson Family Tree on Ancestry.UK

Thank you

Ken